Perfect Is Boring: Tyra Banks and Carolyn London [From the Archive]

[00:00:01] This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host. This is The James Altucher Show. Presenting The Archive. Classic episodes that remain timeless. The raw, unfiltered conversations from the early days in which people shared their failures and showed us exactly how they rebuilt everything from the ground up.

[00:00:35] Super excited to have Tyra Banks and her mom, Carolyn London, who just wrote this excellent book called Perfect Is Boring by, you say, Tyra and her mama. Yeah. So, you know, I have never seen a book, well, I have to back off for just a second. This is gonna sound strange. I've watched probably half the seasons of America's Next Top Model. And it's amazing.

[00:01:02] And the reason why it sounds strange is I'm a 50 year old man and I watch this, but my daughters loved the show. They loved everything about it. So I would watch, it was bonding time for me. And often we would pause, you know, some girl would do something and, you know, it's part of the different exercises you had put them through. And we would pause and try to figure out what you were going to say because they wanted to understand, you know, kind of, it became very clear to them.

[00:01:28] And you point this out so much in the book in such an interesting way, but it became very clear to them that it's not just about looks. It's about personality. It's about presence and charisma and how you use what you have. And I think that's very significant for your career. You often faced times when, oh, no, no, no, no, you need to lose weight or, oh, no, no, no, there's never been a African-American Victoria's Secret angel.

[00:01:57] You know, there's obviously two ways to deal with that, which is to either give up or to figure out your way through. And I think your influence, Carolyn, helped her find the values to keep on pushing through and even not just persisting, but making Tyra stronger as a result. So to become a success she's become. First, how do you decide to write this book together? You know, we had been thinking about writing this book for 10 years. 10 years.

[00:02:22] In fact, we had a book deal, like a massive book deal, like a lot of zeros, a book deal to write this 10 years ago. Note to self, find a way to get a book deal with massive zeros on it. And we ended up passing because I was so busy and book tour and all that. I just was like, I couldn't do it. I was doing top model and my talk show at the same time. I used to do two America's Next Top Models a year. It was just way too much. And so we were like, let's pause. Cut to 10 years later. And here we are.

[00:02:51] And we decided, you know, to write this book because we have this really unique relationship. And so many people were like, I want to be like you and your mama, you know, with my dad and my daughter or my son and my mama, you know, whatever it is, these relationships, they want this relationship like we have. And I think our relationship stems from the raw and honest conversations that my mom had with me and how open and honest she is so much that she makes me blush with her honesty. She must have made you blush your whole life. All the time.

[00:03:21] She threw a period party for you on her first period. Yeah. The Frank sex talks. Yes. The discussions about modeling. Like, obviously, it's a very troubling industry in a lot of ways for the young woman, which you discuss quite a bit in the book. And then your subsequent success after that, which I want to talk about a little bit. But so, yeah. So then you started writing. Was there ever any kind of like it seemed like what would happen is you would write a section and it was almost like a letter to your mom. And then she would write the next. It was almost like a conversation. Yeah.

[00:03:50] You weren't in the room together. Were you just sending emails back and forth or? Yeah. Well, you kind of alluded to did we have any kind of clashes during this process? Absolutely. Yes. Because you clash, don't you? Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. You know, I'm a little long-winded. And whether I'm writing or speaking. And she is constantly telling me to communicate more in sound bites. Well, I don't do what she does for a career. So I don't know how to sound bite.

[00:04:18] So I would wake up in the middle of the night and start writing this amazing memory that I had. And you can say, kind of like describe. Well, yeah. Well, she would write. Okay. So say in the period chapter, I'd say, oh, my God. I started my period. I was at my dad's house. And I'm freaking out because I'm like not wanting my mom to tell my dad. And I call my mom. And I'm like, Mom, don't tell Daddy. Don't tell Daddy. So I'd send that to her. I'd email that to her. Like, Mom, do your answer and what happened? And she'd write this whole long thing.

[00:04:47] And yes, Tyra called. And I picked up that phone. And my baby was in distress. And I just felt her pain in her and how she was going through such this difficult time. And I remember back in the day with my period. And I just didn't want her to go through that. And so I looked at the phone. And I thought, should I tell her father? I'm not sure. Maybe it'll embarrass her. Just going on five pages. And then the last line she wrote is, so I called him. And I told him. So she shows me these five pages. I'm like, Mom, this is amazing.

[00:05:15] We're going to do a little editing, meaning we're going to only use one sentence, which is, so I told him. Can you imagine? Were you upset? Oh, hell yeah. I use a little. Oh, she curses me out. Okay. Like, how dare you do that? And I spent so much time. And I'm trying to tell the story and tell it from my point of view. I'm like, Mama, I edit America's Next Top Model. We shoot four days per episode. That is 24 hours times four.

[00:05:45] And whatever the hell that is, that's a lot of hours. Plus all the editing on top of that. Yeah, so we have to take four days and make it 42 minutes. So that's what we're doing with the book. We're making it smart, punchy, tight, funny, or powerful. And just that one line here and there, whether it's me or you sometimes, is so much more impactful. And, you know, when it is that way, then your advice to her that was really special really stands out. It does pop out. Yeah. And same with her advice to young girls and whoever's reading the book and so on. So I learned.

[00:06:15] But let me ask you this. Because Tyra obviously gets a lot of the values that helped her through her initial successes and failures from you, Carolyn. Where did you get all this foresight to deliver to her? Oh, my gosh. I guess to keep it to the point. There you go, Mama. Find the soundbite. Come on. Here we go. Soundbite. One, two, one, two. It's at your core. You can bring it out. Okay. Let me do this. I was a teen mother. I was a teen mother.

[00:06:45] 1966. 66. And. Dang, you really read the book. I read the book. Of course. What am I not going to do? Dang. I love it. I love it. What kind of memory do you have? I love the book. I mean, but dang, I don't even know what year my mama was a teen mother. And I wasn't born in 66, y'all. I'm not lying about my age. That was my brother coming into the world.

[00:07:07] So being a teen mom and wanting so desperately to be on my own, I ran into obstacle after obstacle. I wasn't able to attend college the way that I wanted to. I got in about a year and a half of junior college. And from there, I was living with my parents, wanted to get out on my own and raise my child. But going out into the world at that time, going on job interviews where I didn't really have that much experience,

[00:07:36] people could legally ask you questions about, oh, so you have a child. Do you have childcare? Are you married? You know, and they would judge you on that. And I couldn't get the job. And so I had to learn how to present myself in a way where I could get my foot in the door. Or you could have given up. So what do you think helped you persist? Was it the fact that you have this child and you knew that you had to keep that child alive? I had to keep that child alive.

[00:08:05] The nurturing instinct was vibrant in me. The strong desire to be independent. Independent. It was so important to me to be independent. She was on government assistance. Yep. She was like, this is temporary. This is not going to be something that I'm going to do for the rest of my life. She tried to get off as fast as she could. And I did.

[00:08:27] I remember going into the welfare office and telling them, I have a job, so I don't need you anymore. And I remember the social worker telling me that she had been working there for 10 years. And that was the first time she had someone come in and say, I don't want to be here anymore. I don't need you. That sounds like a scene in a movie. I know.

[00:08:53] I feel like, I feel it's like, you know, he was a teacher of a school of troubled children. Very Mr. Clark. What was that movie? Lean on me. Yeah. What's the one with... Morgan Freeman? No, no. The other guy who was in Battlestar Galactica against the law. LeVar Burton? No. All right. We'll figure that out. Who? Star Trek. Or is that Star Wars? Who did that? Yeah, yeah. Edward James Olmos. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dropped my water. We're keeping a bill up in here.

[00:09:18] By the way, also, I just noticed too, I like how your mom was putting her hand on the table and you instinctively... We were up one time, Tony Robbins, he just kept pounding the table and it makes a big noise on the audio. On the mic, yeah. So you instinctively know it's 24 seasons of America's Next Top Model. She moved my hand over into my lap. You have to listen to her. You have to listen to her occasionally. She does know what she's doing here. But the thing is, she was following me because we've been doing press and I'm like, Mom,

[00:09:46] you have to be big and exciting and you have to talk with your hands. So now she's talking with her hands and I'm like, oh, but not on the audio. Not on the podcast. She's turning you into America's Top Model. Yes. So, okay, so... But my mom also had a mom that didn't tell her anything. Anything. So that's why she told me everything. She started her period and her mom was like, now you're a woman. Here's some Kotex. My mom's like, what does that mean and what's a Kotex? And you were scared. You thought you were dying when you had your period. I thought I was dying. I thought I was dying.

[00:10:16] And I will never, ever forget it. I mean, I go into a lot of details about, you know, she did hook me up with the Kotex. But beyond just putting it on, I didn't really understand the concept of what it all meant. And I hit so many walls in my life by being ignorant to so much about sexuality that I just didn't want that to happen to my daughter. So she went way too far with me. So I did not go far. Why did she say good things?

[00:10:44] I don't mean, I meant too far, but in a positive way. Like, I think it embarrassed me, but it armed me. Yeah, because when you were in, when you had your first big jobs and you were in Paris and started to be a success, the industry to some extent buffered you so you wouldn't, it wouldn't go to your head, the success. But also you pretty much kept it clean. You weren't all over the place with guys or drugs. I never dated anybody in Paris, which in hindsight, I'm like, that's weird.

[00:11:14] Like, that is so weird to me. I was there, I lived there for two years and didn't date anybody. And I'll never forget this fine-ass male model named Paul with the accent and a British accent. And I saw him at a go-see and he's like, what's your name? And I was like, Tyra? And he's like, oh my God, he's so beautiful. Let's hang out and stuff. But he scared me. I was just like, I don't know, there's a little too much man for me. So like, I didn't date him. What if I did date him? Maybe we wouldn't be sitting here right now.

[00:11:42] Maybe I would have like fallen in love and he would have broken my heart and I couldn't get out of the bed to go to work. And so. I think though a lot of it was like your mom kind of really sort of taking care of those values early on. Yes. Of like what was important. What was important. Stick to the thing that's important. Modeling business, right? I wasn't there to have modeling Paul playtime. It was modeling business. I was there to handle business. But like, I feel like if I was, I don't know, 18, 19 years old, I don't know if I would have listened to my parents.

[00:12:11] Like what made you listen to her? Because it wasn't her saying, you better do this and you better do that. It was her talking and laughing over California Pizza Kitchen, barbecue chicken pizza, you know, and us laughing and her telling me life stories and the crazy things that a man will say to you. And so it wasn't like preaching and making me feel like I had to. And before she left, we had a ritual. I told her, okay, you've chosen rather than to go to college,

[00:12:42] you have chosen to go into the modeling industry and you're going to go to Europe. So you're about to start a business and the commodity is you. So you tell me what you know about that industry. That is a really good way to put it. And I think actually, particularly in today's day and age where kind of the middlemen are being slowly removed from every industry, the commodity or even the business is you. You're not going into the modeling business.

[00:13:07] You're in the Tyra Banks business and modeling is maybe your first customer. Right. You know, and I think that's an extremely important value that you gave her all these years ago. So that probably was in your mind when you're trying to decide, oh, do I go out to this party or do I focus on the Tyra Banks business? And that's the kind of stuff she did. When she got there, I had armed her to go into that industry. And she didn't go there in her mind. She didn't go there to party.

[00:13:34] She went there because this is a choice that she had made. She wasn't going to college. She was going to go to work. And you gave her the power to make that choice. So there's a couple of things I want to unpack in everything you just said, which is you only spent a half a year in college or different points. And here she is deciding not to go to Loyola to go abroad, which is scary, to do modeling.

[00:14:02] How did that make you feel when all you wanted to do so many years earlier was go to college? Like how did you open yourself up to the fact that, okay, she has different choices and then convince her that, okay, it's your choice and you have to fill it with power so it works for you? Well, I asked her. I was like, Mama, I have an opportunity to go to college. I only had two weeks to make a decision. Like college was starting in two weeks and Paris Fashion Week was starting in two weeks. And I said, Mama, what should I do? Tell me.

[00:14:31] Give me the answer. She was like my Yoda. You know, give me the answer, dear Mama. And she says, you're going to do whatever the hell you want to do and you need to make that decision. And so I was like, what? Because I was so used to being a little girl and my mom giving me this advice and maybe she'd do this and that. And this one she put 100% in my lap. But she said that if you're going to go to Paris, you have to know Paris. What is French fashion? What does that mean? Who are the designers? Who are the powers that be? You study for the SATs and you got into every single college.

[00:15:00] And I'll be damned if I let you get on that airplane and you're just thinking that France is croissants. You know what I mean? I also told her that the choice is yours, but I will support you in whatever decision you make. Well, and I think it's... You know, I wanted her to go to college, but I had to let that go. I had to allow her to have her own... You know, it's so important in parenting. So I mentioned earlier before this started out, one of my children's 19 and in her first year of college.

[00:15:30] And I did not want her to go to college, actually, for a whole bunch of reasons. But she wanted to. And, you know, to keep that relationship going and have it strengthened through the years, you have to let them... If she's an adult, you have to let them make decisions, just be there to guide is what I learned. That was a hard lesson for me to learn. What did you want her to do? Well, she wants to be an actress. And I said, listen, instead of taking acting classes at a college, a remote college for four years,

[00:15:58] why don't you at least come here for a year and see how you like the lifestyle of auditioning, which is a different skill set, and see if that fits your temperament and so on. And... But she didn't want to do that. So that's fine. And now it has to work for her this way. And I'm supportive. But, you know, the other thing is, I want to get back to even earlier. Earlier, you mentioned you had a book, you were flirting with a book idea 10 years ago, but you were so busy.

[00:16:25] Like you were doing America's Next Top Model, The Tyra Banks Show, starting a cosmetics brand. You had all these things going on, probably more things than I just mentioned. How do you decide what to say no to and what to say yes to? Yeah. So funny. Because you probably have opportunities all the time. All the time. You know, every day there's some email or something coming in like, we want you to do this. We want you to start this business. I literally just got a text that's like, we're creating this fund for women. And we want you to be on the board and to advise them.

[00:16:55] And, you know, it's tempting. It's like, yeah, I want these women to win. I want these female entrepreneurs to win. And that's an amazing fund. But then I'm like, you know what? You have to say no to stuff. As a model, as I got more known, I had to say no to more jobs than yes. And even now I have to say no to more. Or else you just turn into like a hot mess of nothing. And you just dilute everything. But I'm sure so many people must be dealing with this. Like, what's maybe some basic criteria you use to say no and to say yes?

[00:17:23] So I have kind of a mantra, a personal brand mantra. It's fierce, funny heart. Is it fierce? Meaning, is it like aspirational and like maybe like kind of a glamorous kind of spin to it? Is it funny? Does it make you laugh? Is it self-deprecating? Is it comedic? And heart. Does it touch your heart? Is it emotional? Does it feel like some type of connection? And the projects and things that I do have to touch at least two of those. Wow, that's so interesting. Because I do ask this to a couple people.

[00:17:52] And I get a similar type of answer, which is here are three things. And two out of those three have to work. But I've never heard fierce, funny heart. So why does it have to be? And I actually love your three. But explain to me more. Why does it have to be funny? Yes. Because laughter is fuel to the soul. But I'm just curious how you came to that. Because I think I'm naturally funny. Like on TV and stuff, people are like, she's crazy and she's goofy. And I feel like just fierce alone oftentimes takes itself a little bit too seriously.

[00:18:23] And so the self-deprecation and the humor just brings some levity and brings it to make it much more relatable. And so I love to mix fierce and funny, which I think America's Next Top Model does a lot. Yeah. And then what was the third? Heart. Heart. Emotion. Self-esteem. Love. Love. Embracing people, you know, in a figurative sense and showing them that, you know, perfect is boring. And, you know, you may have freckles all over your face or hair that you think is so frizzy.

[00:18:50] But I'm going to show you how beautiful it is and how amazing that is. Oh my God, I so wasn't. But maybe I was subconsciously. But your hair is the first thing I saw. I said, I love your hair. Oh, thank you. Yeah, but I feel like it's not enough. You taught her well. I feel like you need to keep going. Oh, I never. I just crawl out of bed and don't brush it. And then here I go. But it needs longer. Maybe I should. Even more. You know what? So many people tell me to cut it shorter. No. But maybe I'll follow your advice. Do you know what his hair looks like? Who's your son? Oh my God, my son's hair is exactly like that.

[00:19:20] That's funny. Yes. So fierce, funny, heart, like the cosmetics brand. Let's break that down. Yes. So that is fierce and funny. Yes. Not right now. Right now, you know, the interesting thing is with my cosmetics companies, I focus so much on the operations side that a lot of the brand got diluted. So we're in the process of going back to brand and me realizing this isn't all my business. You have to think about like what are your key success factors? What are the things that got you to where you are to be successful?

[00:19:49] So when I focused on America's Next Top Model, when I first started it, I wasn't in operations. I wasn't like focused on budget. I wasn't focused on how many cameramen we needed for that scene. It was about creative, creative, creative. And then as I've gone and, you know, and studied at Harvard Business School and all of this stuff, I learned all of these business tools. And what happened is I started focusing on that too much and not on the creative. So I have to look at all of my projects and everything that I'm doing in the past and in

[00:20:18] the future and get back to creative and brand and voice and community and less accounting and finance and all that type of stuff. So when you were starting America's Next Top Model, what did you say to yourself? Well, what does, if I do this, what does success look like and what does failure look like? Do you work through decision-making like that? Yeah. Except I thought that success back then was something else. I thought success for a TV show with me being very new, I thought two seasons was like, whoa, that's amazing. 24 seasons later. Hello. Exactly.

[00:20:46] So I thought, ooh, it'll last two seasons and that'll be good. That'll get me in the door and then I'll create another show and another show. And so when we were at season eight and the ratings were so high and crazy, my lawyer set me down, my entertainment lawyer. He's like, I want you to understand this is not normal. Like this show being all over the world already and all these ratings and all this and kind of penetrating pop culture. This is not normal. This is your first one, but I just want you to understand this doesn't just happen.

[00:21:15] And the reason why he set me down during season eight, because that was the season I was going to turn it over to somebody else. I was so tired. I was doing two top models a year. I was doing my talk show. Would you retain ownership of the format? Yes. I would still have retained ownership, but I wouldn't have been on camera. And he was like, this is a juggernaut. Do not leave. I had brought another model into the network. I introduced this model to the network. My mom, remember, she's a supermodel. Y'all know who she is. I was worried about her. Not going to say her name.

[00:21:45] She was working. I'm not going to say, but the way that she was working, it was insane. She was up before sunrise and didn't get home until midnight. And yeah, so that means it's really important that it's got to have heart and be funny. Because how do you, on your busiest moments, on your busiest years, what would be your daily day? How would you recharge your energy? I didn't. That's why I was worried. Back then, I didn't. She didn't.

[00:22:14] I mean, we all have periods where it's super busy, and I hate it. If you can't recharge, it becomes miserable. And what's the point? What is success? And my mom even was like, when is enough enough? Like, you know, yes, you're very successful, but you're not happy. And I'll never forget, when I was in my business courses, our leadership professors said, write down the time when you were the most successful. What were you doing? What was the impact?

[00:22:40] Was there a social impact, a political impact, a pop culture impact, a business impact? How much money were you bringing in for yourself, for your company? All of that. Write that down. So everybody wrote it down. And then he goes, in this next column, write down how you felt. And I almost started crying in class. Because I'll never forget, I was on the cover of every single magazine. New York Times Magazine had a cover on me and said, Oprah, Martha, Tyra. It was my cover. And me on the cover. Tyra. Is she the next female brand itself?

[00:23:09] Time Magazine had me as one of the most influential people in the world two years in a row. I was at the top of my game and at the bottom of my spirit. Why do you think? Working too hard and not understanding balance, not understanding delegation, not understanding if you're unhappy with something, find another person to do that job. Don't do their job. And so there were a lot of things that I was unhappy with in terms of quality. And so I would come into work two hours early to fix it as opposed to going, wait, let me

[00:23:36] just get another person to do this that has the style that I want them to do it. It was just me doing so much stuff. And so now, literally just now, someone emailed me about a new business that I'm launching in 2019. And they were like, I have this guy. He'd be an amazing CEO for you. Can I send him the deck? And can you meet him? And blah, blah, blah. And I was like, go to my team. Have my team do the first interview with him. Leave me out of this until they have screened him. And then I will screen three people at a time, which could be seven months from now. Like I'm learning.

[00:24:07] Because before I would have been like, oh yeah, I'm doing a podcast. And then after that, come to my house. You know, like it's just, I'm a whole different person now. So once you started to realize this about productivity and delegation, did you find downtime for yourself? Like where you could re-energize? Yes. And were you happier? Yes. I'm happier now. Now I have this wonderful time. And also my son being in the world. Now I'm able to be present with my son. Like every now and then when I'm super busy and I'm on my phone and playing with him, he takes my phone and throws it.

[00:24:34] He's two years old and he knows that's something in there that's just not supposed to be happening right now. And he'll throw that phone. So it feels so good to now be able to go to the spa or like my friend and I in May, we're going glamping. We're going to like go and like stay. What's glamping? Glamorous camping. Maybe I need to start doing this. Yes. So you have a cabin. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You have a tent and you do s'mores, but you know, there's like a nice bed in there and there's plumbing. It's called glamping. And where do you do it?

[00:25:04] How do you find out how to do it? In the middle of the country. Like you could go to like Wyoming and places like that to do it. Yeah. Take a quick break. If you like this episode, I'd really, really appreciate it. It would mean so much to me. Please share it with your friends and subscribe to the podcast. Email me at algetra at gmail.com and tell me why you subscribed. Thanks.

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[00:27:57] So when you were beginning modeling career, or not even the beginning, you start off as this amazing success. And then it's like a series of obstacles that start hitting you. One is the weight. Yep. And so many models end up with anorexia or other eating issues because they're constantly told by the clients, she needs to weigh less.

[00:28:19] And then you pivoted a little bit and said, okay, well, actually, I won't even go back further than that. Before you left for Paris. I like what your mom was telling you, which is do this research like you're preparing for the SAT. Yeah. Because when I was reading the book and you're like, oh, you're watching all the videos and this is what this company likes. This is what this company likes. This is what this client likes. That's very, that's everybody should do that in every industry. And they don't. They don't.

[00:28:48] I think that's a key thing for success. So you would know when you went in the door, as opposed to every other girl going in the door, you were better prepared than everyone in terms of like what look you should have, how you should act, how your hair should be, how your face should look, how you should, I don't know, pout or not pout or walk on the runway. That kind of preparation is so critical for everything. And do you find that that applies to everything that you've done since? It does. It really does. I am like the prepared, like crazy, crazy prepared, like the Boy Scout be prepared.

[00:29:18] That is me. And it does come from my mom, like forcing me to do that as a model. So when I went to Paris, like, um, you know, studying at the fashion library before I left in the fashion library in LA, I learned what Chanel liked. I learned what Yves Saint Laurent liked. I learned what Dior liked. Totally different. So I had a little arsenal inside of my backpack. My, I took my high school backpack that I used to carry my, my textbooks. I took it and had my portfolio in that high school backpack. And I'd stand outside kind of in the alley sometimes. And I'd be like, okay, this is Yves Saint Laurent. And this is an audition for that.

[00:29:48] So let me slick my hair back in a bun. Let me throw on some red lipstick and go in there and just ready to be like a stone cold diva. Okay. And then at my appointment, it'd be like, okay, five blocks from here, it's Chanel. And Chanel likes kind of loose hair. And they want you to be kind of twirly pearls and kind of smiling down the runway. So I'd take my hair down, take the lipstick off, put like some lip gloss on, go in there and walk for Karl Lagerfeld. And I ended up making history and being the first model to ever book 25 fashion shows. Her first year of being an unknown.

[00:30:17] Nobody knew who the hell I was. She was 17. Yeah. And that level of preparation immediately puts you ahead of all. I mean, I'm sure all of your quote unquote competitors, the other girls there were beautiful and had everything going for them. You even mentioned in the book, any model who thinks she's got a one-way ticket to the top just because of her natural beauty has another thing coming. Natural beauty may get you about two steps up the stairway to success, but then you got to work. And I think that's true again in every industry. Like no matter how talented you are, that's the first 2%.

[00:30:46] And then there's 98% is work. So much. Like if you think about the supermodels, like of the past and of today, if you think about like Cindy Crawford and Heidi Klum and myself, the reason why we're supermodels is not because we look better than somebody else. There was a girl in Paris, I'm not going to say her name, but I would look at her on ghosties and auditions and she blew my mind. I couldn't stop staring at her, how beautiful she was, but she got nowhere because she didn't have strategy and a plan and a personality.

[00:31:13] And so the reason why Cindy Crawford's famous or I'm famous or Heidi Klum is because we're business women. Like we are strategists. Like there's the fine girl over there, the better body over there, but we know that, okay, I need to study this. I need to do this. I need to accomplish this. And it's a strategy and it's a strategy that I now teach very known models how to get to the next level and how to be sustainable and how to not be a has-been. We sit at restaurants and I have this kind of thing that I call the sun and the moon that

[00:31:42] I learned from Harvard and I take them through this course. And success for me is when I, now I can track them and see on social media that they're doing it and that they're winning. What's the sun and the moon? The sun is you in the middle. And then the moons are all of these different opportunities that you have. And then there's like kind of lines that you can draw through them to take you through the strategy, but you're always the sun. And then the moons are all of the different things. And you've really done that in terms of like, you know, your, your modeling career, nobody

[00:32:10] could tell you no, you would figure out, okay, if this group said no, I'm going to, and it's part of that research that you taught her. Like when they told you, oh, you need to lose some weight, you made a list of the models who are a little bit bigger, a little more voluptuous and looked at who their client were. And then started pitching their clients. So, so smart instead of just saying, oh, I got to lose weight or I'm going to fail or being crushed. I mean, I'm sure you felt disappointment because it's horrible for people to say, oh, you've got to lose a few pounds and you're only.

[00:32:41] It was crushing. Yeah. Yeah. So an Italian agent, when I was in Italy and my mom was there with me, he called her to his office and he was like, you know, Carolina, we have to talk about Tyra. Tyra, she's getting so fat, grosso. And here's a list of eight designers, otto designers, no one to hire her. You have to tell your baby she need to lose the weight.

[00:33:01] So then my mom took this list and I came to our hotel and I remember her lying on the bed because she was tired. And I put her head on my lap. And you showed me the list. She just showed her the list and told her exactly what he said. And I started crying. She started crying like, mama, what am I going to do? I don't know. Okay. Okay. Maybe I'll lose weight. I'll lose weight. I'll work out twice a day. I'll work out.

[00:33:30] Maybe I should get a personal trainer and really work out. Or maybe I can just cut everything like a huge amount of food. Maybe I can just eat like lettuce. She started this madness. And she said, what am I going to do? Mama, what am I going to do? And I said, you're going to go eat pizza with me. We're going to go get pizza. And we're going to figure this out. Well, that's really great advice because food is medicine. Food is medicine.

[00:34:00] So over this pizza in this pizzeria on a street called Corso Magenta in Milano, they had butcher paper on the counter. I mean, on the table. And she put a pin in my hand and a pizza slice in the other hand. And she says, you write down all the clients that you know like ass. Your ass. Because I'd be damned if my baby starves for this industry. And she'd be like, take a bite and write down a designer. Write down a campaign.

[00:34:29] Write down a client. And so I was like crying and eating pizza. And I was like, Victoria's Secret? And she's like, write it down. And I was like, Sports Illustrated? She's like, write it down. And then she's like, now who has an ass? And I'm like, Cindy Crawford. Write it down. So then I had a list of models who had asses and clients that liked ass. And then my mom looked at it and said, those are the careers that you need to emulate. And those are your future clients.

[00:34:58] And from there, that butcher paper, I took it back to my agents and showed them. And that was the beginning of me changing my career from high fashion to more of a girl next door, Americana girl. I think, though, when you're in an industry and you're in the high fashion industry and so successful, it probably was a hard mindset change to say, okay, I'm not going to be the top of this hierarchy. I'm going to switch hierarchies. How did you get through that mindset change? Well, it was scary because I wasn't proven in the other world. This was us just trying something.

[00:35:27] And it could have failed miserably. And then I would have had to figure out something else. But I had a wonderful fallback, which I wouldn't even call it a fallback, but a passion in film and television. So I would have definitely been able to go back to college. But it was hard to say no to this world that had accepted me, this high fashion couture world. Where you were the it girl. It was the it girl. And then even when I transitioned, and this is before it was cool to transition from high fashion to commercial.

[00:35:56] When I transitioned, the high fashion world was like, oh, now she's a cover girl. And she sells, you know, makeup. I remember one of the designers said that another model is... Claudia Schiffer. We could say Claudia Schiffer went to go sell Fanta soda. And a very popular designer like turned his nose up at her because she like went commercial. So not only did I later go commercial, then I created this reality show. What the hell? About modeling?

[00:36:23] And this is before designers were hiring models from reality shows. So then they were like, oh my gosh, she's even more gauche. Now she's a television show producer. You know, it just became like, what? And I want to get to that. But then there was the next obstacle when you were going to Victoria's Secret and Sports Illustrated, which is almost a more historical obstacle. But they didn't want to hire an African-American woman at first. Yes. Well, not Victoria's Secret and Sports Illustrated, but just my agencies.

[00:36:51] When I first started trying to model, I would go into agencies. I was 15 years old and I'd walk in there and I'd see 200 models on the walls. You know, there are photos on the walls. And then the person would say, oh, we're so sorry. We already have a black girl. I'm like, there's 200 models on the wall and I see one black girl. Like, what? So I would hear things like that. And then, of course, the kind of break down your body and say all of these things that, you know, you didn't even know was an insecurity.

[00:37:19] And now it is because they're saying, oh, your hips are not in proportion to your calves or you have flat feet or, you know, your lips are too round or, you know, just all these things. But the interesting thing is the agency that finally did sign me did say that they loved my big forehead or what I call my five head. Your five head they mentioned. Yeah. So it gave me self-esteem for something like love for my forehead because they said if I had a normal size forehead, I probably would have been a little too commercial, a little bit too safe.

[00:37:46] But that big forehead helped me to be high fashion. And so when you finally started pitching Victoria's Secret and Sports Illustrated, did you find obstacles then? I didn't have a black girl obstacle with Victoria's Secret. Actually, they gave me a chance. And so my black girl obstacle was a little bit different. So my first day on set, I sit in the makeup chair, get my makeup done. Then I sit in the hair chair. Oh, they didn't know what to do. They didn't know what the hell to do with my hair. My hair is like yours times 10 more curly points.

[00:38:17] And that hairdresser just did everything wrong to my African-American black girl hair. And I get on the set and I know I'm looking crazy. No one is giving me eye contact. The photographer's kind of half going, ooh, looking at me. He takes a couple of shots and then they send me home. Pretty much fire me and say, go home. And I was devastated because I was like, this is Victoria's Secret. This was on the butcher paper at the pizza joint in Italy. I'm here. And the dream was gone.

[00:38:45] And it took me a whole year to finally call my agent again and say, you know what? That wasn't my fault. It was the hairdresser's fault. He didn't know how to do my hair. Get me another look. And after me begging and begging and begging my agent, they finally called Victoria's Secret again. And I was smart this time. I called my hairdresser friend, Oscar James. And I was like, I booked Victoria's Secret again, but I need you to come to my house the night before. I need you to wash, condition, blow dry, and flat iron my hair. He came to my house. He did my hair.

[00:39:14] I wrapped it up in a scarf. I even got in the cab with the scarf on the next morning. I slept in that scarf. Got in the cab with the scarf on. Right before I opened the door to the studio for Victoria's Secret, I whipped that scarf off. Hair went whoosh. And I sat in the makeup chair, let them do my makeup, told the hairdresser, look, I'm done. You don't have to touch me. Then I went into the bathroom, redid my makeup, put a little extra lip gloss on, a little more contour, a little more concealer.

[00:39:42] Went on that set and then cut to, I was a Victoria's Secret angel for 10 years. I was the first black model on the cover of the Victoria's Secret catalog. The first black model to be an angel. The first black model to wear the fantasy bra. I wore it twice. Like so many firsts with Victoria's Secret. And I take it back to taking control of my destiny. Calling that agent. Yeah, tell them what you did. Okay, because there's one part that she missed.

[00:40:09] And that part is when she got fired from Victoria's Secret that time. And she came to me and she was crying. And she was saying, Mama, can you call my agency and ask them to give me another chance? Yeah, a year after I had been fired. Yes, this is a year later. And she's begging me. And Mom, just call them and tell them this and tell them that and tell them this. I need another chance. I need another chance. And what were you doing during that year? Modeling and doing stuff.

[00:40:38] But not at the level that I wanted to do. Like people knew my name, kind of. But not so much. I was trying to do this transition from high fashion to more commercial. And it was going okay. But I could tell that I was going down a slippery slope. Back in two years, I would have been done. So then you called. So I dialed the agency. The agency answered. I threw the phone in her lap and walked out the door and shut the door. Because it was time for her to take charge.

[00:41:09] And she did it. Through tears and a shaking voice. Can you call Victoria's Secret again? And my agent was like, no, it's done. Give it up. And finally, my agent was like, fine, I'll do it. And Victoria's Secret said, we do like her. And we'd like to give her another chance. Cut to just amazingness.

[00:41:42] And so then you had obviously this amazing career as a model. I think many people get so focused on one industry. And then when it ends and you see this in sports, you see this in modeling, you see this in dance. That's it. They're done. And you made this amazing, magnificent transition to television. I mean, who has a show that goes on for 24 seasons of top ratings? Like how did you? And then, of course, you did the Tyra Banks show. You won two daytime Emmys. How did you make the transition from modeling to television?

[00:42:11] So the television transition was always in me. So modeling happened to me. Like I was discovered on the first day of high school and then later discovered again to go to Paris. But I like to say I happened to TV. Like that was my passion. That was going to happen no matter what. That was her major in college. She was going to film and television production. Yeah, that was my major in college. So this was just me coming back to myself saying I skipped college, but I'm not going to forget this passion.

[00:42:39] So one day I was in my kitchen in Los Angeles and I'd woken up and I'm having my underwear like granny panties. Don't think of the glamorous Victoria's Secret panties. Like not hot underwear. But I go in my kitchen and I'm making some tea. And then I look out the window and in my head popped, wow, there's that show called American Idol. And some girl named Kelly Clarkson just won. And that's a really cool show. But then there's also that show The Real World on MTV. And you get to see people living together and their struggles day in and day out.

[00:43:09] What if I combine the competition part of American Idol with the seeing how they live of the real world and set it in the modeling industry? It came to me like that. And I tell my agent, my agent at the time was kind of like an agent that booked me for commercials, not a modeling agent, but like a theatrical agent. And I told him my idea and he was like, models are unsympathetic characters and vapid. Nobody wants to watch that. Why are people so wrong sometimes? Right?

[00:43:39] Like crazy. I mean, every girl in the world was watching this show and their father. And she told me when she was making that tea, she called me and she goes, I got this idea. And I was like, wow, that's pretty amazing. But then when she told me what he said, it was like, what? Why do you think people are so wrong sometimes? Middle men. I think a lot of it is their own preconceived notions. A lot of it is they want to keep a lot of us in our place.

[00:44:09] You know, oh, you're just a model. You stay over there. Or going into stereotypes and not looking deeper. Cutting an idea off before you can actually even hear the idea. So then how did you avoid giving him, like outsourcing too much of your self-esteem on this idea to him? Like you basically knew that this was a good idea. How did you go around his opinion? It was my third time that I pitched a show to him. This was the third one that he said was not a good idea. And I was tired of it.

[00:44:36] And so I called my best friend at the time and still very super, duper close friend, Kenya Barris. Kenya created Black-ish, very successful writer. At the time, he was a staff writer. Successful, but not like the juggernaut that he is today. They went to elementary school together. Yeah, we've known each other since we were six years old. And so I was like, Kenya, I'm so tired of my agent. I had this idea. I told him the idea. He's like, Ty, that's the third good idea. He goes, I'm tired of this. And I was like, what can we do? So he took it to his agency and connected me to his agency.

[00:45:04] And his agency connected me to a man by the name of Ken Mock, who was like the godfather of very early competition reality shows. And I had like a little dinner with Ken Mock in LA. I told him my idea. And he's like, that's a great idea. And a couple of weeks later, we're pitching it. Kenya helped develop it. Ken helped me develop it. And we sold the idea. Yeah. Now, Ken, he confesses that Ken thought I was going to be a vanity producer. And that's where you put your name on something and you don't do any work.

[00:45:30] So he was shocked that I had so much natural knowledge about how to produce television. And that I lived in the editing bay. After we had finished shooting, I would like order barbecued ribs and camp out with the lead editor, Michael Policow. And we would just chow down on ribs and edit, edit, edit like all day and all night. And we hit that first season and it was super successful. Well, I think also this behind the scenes aspect of what makes a good model, which comes

[00:45:56] out in the show, it was so interesting because then it made clear to all these little girls that it's not just about looks. It's about how you present yourself and personality and all of these other things. Like, I don't know, what makes a good model? And it's also not just about cookie cutter beauty. My mom really at a young age instilled in me that there's so many different types of beauty. And so I'm super attracted to things that are not the cookie cutter. And that's one of the major messages of Top Model 2 is you don't have to be, you know,

[00:46:24] this kind of hair and this look and this eye and this booty and this boob. So many different types of quirks that are amazingly beautiful. And she learned a lot of that because I was a medical photographer. So I took photographs for medical textbooks. And then I had a friend in the fashion industry who hooked me up to start doing fashion shoots. And Tyra used to come with me and work kind of like as my assistant. So she would hold the light meter and the reflectors and whatnot.

[00:46:53] And there's a little hitch to that, but I'll come back around. Why don't you talk about, because before her like having a side hustle and doing like lookbooks for fashion, she had a side business at the house in our living room. That's the part. And yeah, and she would photograph women and do their hair, do their makeup. Like glamour portraits. Yeah, but like really beautiful, black and white. It wasn't like the ones at the mall, but like really beautiful. And I was her assistant. So I'd hold her makeup brushes. I'd hold her light meter.

[00:47:20] And I heard women like every day that they would come to have my mom photograph them. And they'd be like, oh, I hate my eyes. I hate my eyebrows. Oh, I don't photograph well. I don't photograph well. I'm not beautiful. My teeth, my this, my that. And my mom would always find the beauty in them and always tell them that it doesn't have to look like everybody else. So here I am, this seven, eight, nine, 10 year old little girl hearing this constantly. Seeing my mom photograph, understanding how to use light, understanding all of this stuff. And then seeing the women look at the final product and burst into tears

[00:47:47] because they can't believe that they could look like that. So it's interesting how then all this combination of experiences, your experience as a photographer bringing out the beauty in these women and bringing out the beauty in their flaws, your experience in modeling. And it really comes across when you're doing the show. So I found my own daughters were rooting for the girls who had a lot of flaws. And you were rooting for those girls too. And it would come across in what you were saying to them.

[00:48:13] And then there was this extra personality aspect that they had to kind of have that heart and that fierceness to them. And I don't know if it was ever, you mentioned a little bit in the beginning, what's a negative experience in the show? But it seems like it was a very positive experience for you overall and still is. I mean, 24 seasons later. I loved my top model. I left a year ago because I thought that I needed to bring like a younger generation to host it and to keep it sustainable and going. And it actually, that decision was not the best decision.

[00:48:40] And so I ended up coming back to the show and now our ratings are back up and we're doing so good. And America's next top model is in 150 countries, the American version. So like dubbed all across the world. And then we have 25 international versions. Yeah, you have like Mexican's top model. We have Mexico's next top model. Vietnamese top model. Yes, we have, it's so popular in India. We have two versions. We have one that's shot in English and a totally different one, different host, different models shot in Hindi. Yeah.

[00:49:09] And it's so popular in Asia. So we have South Korea's next top model. We have China's next top model. We have Indonesia's next top model. Vietnam, the list goes on and on. But it's so popular in Asia. We actually have the continent of Asia. It's the next top model also. That's funny. Yeah. And then you started the Tyra Banks show. You kind of moved it one step further, which is you had this ability to communicate with people. And, you know, you did it for five seasons. Yes. Well, why'd you stop in five seasons? I don't really know the full. Well, it was really hard. It was like- It's a lot of work.

[00:49:38] It was a lot, a lot of work doing the talk show. You know, I was just talking to Dr. Oz a couple of hours ago. And, you know, you have to do 175 shows a day. And I wasn't just- I'm sorry. 175 shows a year. Sorry. And I wasn't just talent. I was also producing it. And, of course, micromanaging and doing a whole bunch of stuff that I shouldn't have done. So it just really wore on me, like in a big, big way. And then I remember the- What you call it hit? The- You know what I'm saying? The crash. The crash.

[00:50:08] Yeah. The financial crisis hit. Not the depression, but damn near. In 2008. And we had lost so many advertisers. And they were like, you know, should we continue this? And, you know, it's going to be an uphill battle. And we've lost all of our car sponsors and stuff. I'm like, I'm good. Let's just call this a day. So what's right now a typical day like for you? I don't have typical days, but I can give you a day. A day. A day. Okay. So I wake up to mama, mama.

[00:50:36] I wake up to my son between 5 a.m. and 7.30 a.m. And so then I put him in my bed. But lately he's been in my bed all night. And so then we'll wake up. His final wake up is between 6.30 and 8. And we'll play. Then his nanny comes. And when we play with the nanny. And then we'll all have breakfast together. He's now big enough to eat at the table. So he loves some bacon. So he eats the bacon. And I do some yogurt and some granola.

[00:51:05] Got to have my coffee. Lord, love my coffee. And then I'll start working on my computer. I try to not start before 10 a.m., but sometimes I can't help it. And I'll start doing emails. And then there's just like meeting upon meeting upon meeting. Then I have to leave. Mommy's going to work. And then he's like, I don't want mommy work. I don't want mommy work. I'm like, mommy's got to work so that you can live. If mommy doesn't go to work, we don't have a house. And he doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about. But I'm trying to instill in him that work is important. And then I'll have meetings.

[00:51:33] I'll have meetings about my future huge project that I'm doing in 2019. Or like people are constantly pitching me television shows. And I'm listening to those pitches and seeing, you know, if I like them. So are you a producer now on other shows? Yes, I'm starting my production company up again. So you will definitely see a lot of content coming from us. And yeah, interviewing people. Yesterday I was interviewing for support staff by Skype. I might have to hire somebody that is going to be my right hand. And I will never have even laid eyes on them in person.

[00:52:02] So I was just doing that yesterday. What else? Oh, talking to the York school that he's going to be going to and making sure I have the files for that. Calling the pediatrician because he has to make sure that he's had certain shots to go to this school. So it's now this like mommy slash businesswoman. Balance in life. Yeah. Are you happy with how she's living her life now? Absolutely. Not that you weren't happy before, but you were worried when she was working too hard. She was working so hard. I have to tell you, she worked so hard that sometimes she would get in the car

[00:52:32] with her driver and you couldn't remember where you were going. Yeah. I'd be like, where are we going? But what does success look like to you now in the sense that you've achieved the financial success, obviously trained by tens of millions of people. You don't really need to go to the day job to pay for the house. What does success look like to you over the next 10 years, say? Success now looks like legacy.

[00:52:59] So like, what am I doing to leave behind? And I don't mean like money or I'm talking about the legacy of expanding the definition of beauty and making people feel more beautiful than they ever thought possible. And what does that mean? And how does that sustain past me? What are the businesses that I've created that my son will either run or at least just be knowledgeable of that his mom did that the world will go, wow, Tyra Banks created that. And I'm talking about my generation and a little bit younger than my generation

[00:53:28] will know that I created that, but that their kids and their kids' kids will have no idea and care less. So it's like Disneyland. Like my mom knew that there was a Walt Disney and she would tell me, you know, a man created this. And I'd be like, whatever, where's Space Mountain? I just want to get on the ride. You know, and that's what I'm looking to do is to create things that outlive me that after a while people don't know that there was a person and they don't care, but they still know that when they experience that brand, it makes them feel more beautiful than they ever thought possible. Well, Tyra and Carolyn,

[00:53:58] this is such a great book that you guys wrote together and it was so heartening to see mother and daughter, you know, write and work so seamlessly through this. I hope one day I get a chance to do something like that with my children. Everybody should have to be so lucky. Perfect is Boring is a great title. I think that in itself is such an inspirational message among many that are in the book. I'm going to read the subtitle, 10 Things My Crazy, Fierce Mama Taught Me About Beauty, Booty, and Being a Boss. Great subtitle. And I just highly recommend the book and it was such a pleasure to have you on the show.

[00:54:28] Thank you so much. Thank you. Are you going to grow the hair out now? I am going to take your advice. I want to be America's top podcaster. Exactly. Love it. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you.

[00:55:08] Thank you. That is so fetch. On Pluto TV. Stream now. Pay never.