Mastering Mastery: Unraveling Learning with Scott Young

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[00:00:59] Get better at anything.

[00:01:09] 12 maxims for mastery.

[00:01:12] I first met Scott Young almost 10 years ago when, in a 12-month period,

[00:01:18] he basically finished all the requirements for a four-year MIT degree in computer science.

[00:01:24] He's an expert at learning things quickly.

[00:01:27] He just wrote this book, Get Better at Anything, 12 Maxims for Mastery.

[00:01:31] I had a chance to sit down and talk with him because I'm always interested in learning

[00:01:35] and learning about learning and how to get great at things.

[00:01:38] Scott Young is an expert at this, and on this episode, we talk all about it.

[00:01:43] This isn't your average business podcast, and he's not your average host.

[00:01:52] This is the James Altucher Show.

[00:02:04] Scott, when were you first on the podcast? It was many years ago.

[00:02:08] Yeah, a long time ago.

[00:02:10] You know what is so funny? Because when I was doing the proposal for ultra-learning,

[00:02:15] which is now probably seven years ago or something like that,

[00:02:19] I'd never written a book, so I hadn't been on a lot of podcasts.

[00:02:22] It wasn't a big thing.

[00:02:24] So they're like podcast appearances, and I think it was your show

[00:02:27] and maybe Jordan Harbinger.

[00:02:29] I had just been randomly invited to go on the show.

[00:02:31] I think probably 15 years ago, maybe.

[00:02:34] Probably wasn't that long ago because I wasn't doing the podcast then,

[00:02:37] but maybe it was like 10, maybe.

[00:02:39] Yeah, because here's the thing.

[00:02:41] I sought you out because I saw that article how,

[00:02:44] or there was an article about you, how you had essentially completed

[00:02:49] a four-year MIT degree in computer science in like what?

[00:02:54] A few weeks, a few months? I forget what it was.

[00:02:56] Yeah, that was my first big project.

[00:02:59] I wrote an essay for Cal's website, and it got some play.

[00:03:03] Yeah, probably would have been around then.

[00:03:06] Yeah, that would have been about 10 years ago.

[00:03:08] Yeah, that was 2012 maybe.

[00:03:13] Is that right? 2012, 2013?

[00:03:15] Maybe a little after that.

[00:03:17] Something like that, yeah.

[00:03:19] And then you became an expert on fast learning,

[00:03:23] and I've always been fascinated by this subject.

[00:03:26] In fact, some of the experiments you refer to in your new book,

[00:03:29] I participated in those experiments.

[00:03:32] I've always been fascinated by, and I've had on Anders Ericsson,

[00:03:37] I've had on others related to learning.

[00:03:39] I've written about learning.

[00:03:41] But tell a little bit about your story first,

[00:03:43] and then we'll get into your book.

[00:03:45] Yeah, so my background is kind of unusual.

[00:03:47] I started writing, it's like at least 15 years now

[00:03:51] that I've been writing online, and often about learning,

[00:03:55] about studying, so these are topics that are very close to my heart.

[00:03:59] We had a conversation when my first book came out, Ultra Learning,

[00:04:03] which was about some of my sort of self-directed learning projects

[00:04:06] and some other people's like, you know, we mentioned the MIT Challenge,

[00:04:09] which was this learning MIT's computer science curriculum

[00:04:12] because they post tons of their classes online for free.

[00:04:15] And this was, you know, shortly after I graduated from business school,

[00:04:18] and it was like, has anyone ever tried to do this before?

[00:04:20] And I couldn't see anyone who had tried to do it before,

[00:04:22] so I tried to do it myself.

[00:04:24] And I also did a project learning languages.

[00:04:26] I went around the world learning French, sorry, learning Spanish,

[00:04:30] Portuguese, Mandarin Chinese, and Korean with a friend.

[00:04:34] And the kind of crux of that experiment was

[00:04:36] that we weren't going to speak English the whole time,

[00:04:38] so we were just like speaking the language of the place

[00:04:40] that we were learning it in.

[00:04:42] And, you know, I've done other things too.

[00:04:43] I know I think the last time you had me on,

[00:04:45] we talked a lot about the portrait drawing one.

[00:04:47] I think you were interested in that one too,

[00:04:49] but like getting better at drawing people's faces

[00:04:51] and this kind of thing.

[00:04:52] And so those sort of like personal experiments,

[00:04:54] I think really set up a love of like,

[00:04:56] what is the science of learning?

[00:04:58] How does this work?

[00:04:59] And like wanting to dive deeper into that

[00:05:01] and compiling a lot of that research, those ideas,

[00:05:04] those sort of like big fundamental concepts

[00:05:06] that I think shape how I think about it

[00:05:08] was really putting together in this book,

[00:05:10] you know, over the last five years of research.

[00:05:13] There's like learning something, but then there's meta-learning,

[00:05:16] which is learning the kind of structure of learning,

[00:05:21] like learning how to learn faster.

[00:05:22] And there's a great example of it,

[00:05:25] which I think is very interesting.

[00:05:26] And for a lot of people talk about this stuff.

[00:05:29] So like Anders Ericsson has the theory of

[00:05:31] if you spend 10,000 hours of deliberate practice,

[00:05:34] meaning do something, get feedback, repeat.

[00:05:38] If you spend 10,000 hours doing something like that,

[00:05:41] then you'll be among the best in the world.

[00:05:43] But then, but that's all good,

[00:05:46] but A, people don't spend 10,000 hours at something.

[00:05:48] B, you don't have to be in the best of the world

[00:05:51] speaking Portuguese in order to speak fluent Portuguese.

[00:05:54] And C, it seems to only work for,

[00:05:57] Anders' theories mostly work for subjects

[00:06:02] that are repetitive tasks.

[00:06:04] So like memorizing a stream of numbers, for instance.

[00:06:07] And, but you have in this book,

[00:06:11] Get Better at Anything, 12 Maximums for Mastering,

[00:06:14] you kind of dive into more specifics

[00:06:16] about what does it really take to learn?

[00:06:20] And I have questions all over the place, but, you know,

[00:06:26] trying to figure out where to start here.

[00:06:29] But one thing that's always interesting to me

[00:06:33] is the importance of memory versus practice versus quantity.

[00:06:42] Like all these play a role in pattern recognition.

[00:06:46] All these play a role.

[00:06:48] What's the most important, is there any kind of,

[00:06:51] what's the role of talent in learning?

[00:06:53] Oh, I mean, talent is obviously huge.

[00:06:55] I think the reason I don't really like talent as a concept

[00:06:58] is not because I don't think it exists.

[00:07:00] Like I definitely think there's some people who are,

[00:07:03] you know, for whatever reason,

[00:07:04] they're just a little bit better at learning X

[00:07:06] or they're better at reaching a higher level of X

[00:07:08] than other people are.

[00:07:10] But the reason I don't really like it

[00:07:11] is it's not really an explanation.

[00:07:12] It's not like pointing to like,

[00:07:13] oh, well this is the thing that's different in their brain

[00:07:15] which allows them to learn better.

[00:07:17] Like at least intelligence, you know,

[00:07:19] is defined by psychologists

[00:07:20] as a little bit of a narrower concept

[00:07:21] or like working memory capacity is an even narrower concept.

[00:07:24] So if someone said, oh,

[00:07:25] you have a greater working memory capacity

[00:07:27] and that's why you're good at physics,

[00:07:28] I kind of accept that as an explanation.

[00:07:30] But talent to me has always just been,

[00:07:32] well, we don't know why this person's better

[00:07:34] than this other person.

[00:07:35] And so we're just sort of like, well, you know,

[00:07:37] sometimes people are better than other people.

[00:07:38] Whereas I, so I think the role of talent

[00:07:41] is definitely there,

[00:07:42] but I focus so much more on like the mechanisms,

[00:07:45] the things that underlie skill development,

[00:07:47] not to be dismissive of talent,

[00:07:49] but just to be like, I like an actual explanation.

[00:07:51] I like an actual explanation for why this person

[00:07:54] is better than someone else.

[00:07:55] And so I'm really always interested in those mechanisms.

[00:07:58] And a lot of those have to do with practice.

[00:08:00] A lot of those have to do with, you know,

[00:08:01] how you're acquiring knowledge

[00:08:03] and how you're implementing it.

[00:08:05] Let's talk about Annette Oberstadt.

[00:08:08] I don't know how to say her name.

[00:08:09] Annette Oberstadt.

[00:08:10] Yeah, I think it's Annette Oberstadt, yeah.

[00:08:12] At the age of 19

[00:08:14] or right before she became 19,

[00:08:16] she was the youngest ever winner

[00:08:18] of a world series of poker tournament.

[00:08:20] And she's won like, you know,

[00:08:22] $3.9 million in, from, from poker.

[00:08:27] What, what did she do?

[00:08:29] Yeah.

[00:08:30] Poker is such a fascinating topic

[00:08:31] and it's a really great domain

[00:08:32] because there's a, it's a closed system

[00:08:34] in that there's a set of rules

[00:08:36] as opposed to like writing

[00:08:37] where there's really no rules.

[00:08:38] Yeah, yeah.

[00:08:39] There's a, there's a set of rules

[00:08:42] and there's also imperfect information.

[00:08:45] Like, you know what cards you have in your hand

[00:08:47] but you don't know what cards

[00:08:48] are in the other people's hands.

[00:08:51] So it's a type of game with,

[00:08:53] called an imperfect information game.

[00:08:55] So particularly difficult to learn.

[00:08:57] There's this psychological aspect,

[00:08:58] there's statistics, there's the role of,

[00:09:01] there's obviously psychology involved.

[00:09:03] So, so how did she learn

[00:09:05] to be one of the greatest poker players

[00:09:07] by the age of 19?

[00:09:09] Yeah.

[00:09:10] Annette is just such a fun example

[00:09:12] of a, of a breed of players.

[00:09:14] So I don't, I don't even use her

[00:09:15] as like saying, okay well Annette

[00:09:17] is the best poker player who's ever lived

[00:09:18] but just as an example

[00:09:20] of a generation of poker players

[00:09:22] that grew up playing online.

[00:09:24] Because prior to this,

[00:09:25] so there, there was this,

[00:09:27] there was this guy Chris Moneymaker

[00:09:28] who was like an accountant

[00:09:29] and he did like a $39 buy-in

[00:09:31] at some like online poker site

[00:09:33] and that led to him winning

[00:09:34] the American World Series

[00:09:35] at a poker tournament

[00:09:36] and it was, I don't know,

[00:09:37] some millions of dollars from that.

[00:09:38] And him just being like,

[00:09:39] oh some random guy

[00:09:41] who's just playing online

[00:09:42] won millions of dollars

[00:09:43] just created this explosion

[00:09:44] in, in online poker.

[00:09:46] And I think if you just look

[00:09:48] at the before and after

[00:09:49] of this trend,

[00:09:50] before it was like,

[00:09:51] well you had to be one

[00:09:52] of these kind of chain smoking

[00:09:54] casino guys to learn the game.

[00:09:56] You were at the high stakes table,

[00:09:57] you're playing hand after hand

[00:09:58] and after hand

[00:09:59] and yeah you're writing things down,

[00:10:00] you're keeping track of stuff

[00:10:01] but I mean your, your memory's limited.

[00:10:03] You're, you're only able

[00:10:04] to play so many hands.

[00:10:05] You can only sit at one table at a time

[00:10:07] whereas, you know,

[00:10:08] poker players like Annette,

[00:10:10] they're playing online,

[00:10:11] they're playing in their basement,

[00:10:12] they can, you know,

[00:10:13] sometimes have like several games

[00:10:14] open at once.

[00:10:15] They have the entire history

[00:10:16] of every play

[00:10:17] that anyone ever made

[00:10:18] so they can download

[00:10:19] like their hand history

[00:10:20] and be like,

[00:10:21] oh you make suboptimal moves

[00:10:22] in this particular situation

[00:10:23] and so you can get

[00:10:24] that kind of feedback

[00:10:25] and improve on it.

[00:10:26] So I think it's an example

[00:10:27] of, you know,

[00:10:28] someone who clearly has talent,

[00:10:29] someone who clearly

[00:10:30] has motivation to learn

[00:10:31] but at the same time

[00:10:32] is in an environment

[00:10:33] where she can just get

[00:10:34] this rapid feedback,

[00:10:35] get really accurate,

[00:10:36] you know, calibration

[00:10:37] of what she's doing right,

[00:10:38] what she's doing wrong

[00:10:39] and so she's just able

[00:10:40] to learn so much faster

[00:10:41] than maybe a previous generation

[00:10:42] could have for learning poker.

[00:10:45] Right, so I think somebody

[00:10:47] in, Dan Negreno

[00:10:49] says in that same chapter

[00:10:52] that Doyle Brunson

[00:10:53] who was 80 years old at the time,

[00:10:55] now he's passed away

[00:10:56] but Doyle Brunson's been playing

[00:10:58] for 70 years of his life

[00:11:00] and he still hasn't played

[00:11:01] as many hands

[00:11:02] as some of these like 15 year olds

[00:11:04] who are playing online

[00:11:05] because they could play

[00:11:06] 20 hands at any given moment.

[00:11:08] Yeah, I mean,

[00:11:09] I don't know whether like

[00:11:10] Negreno's statement

[00:11:12] is entirely accurate

[00:11:14] but I just thought it was

[00:11:15] really a good example

[00:11:16] of a quote of like

[00:11:17] a professional poker player

[00:11:18] who's just commenting on

[00:11:19] these kids who are coming up

[00:11:20] through this system

[00:11:21] are just getting so much feedback

[00:11:23] and I think also the online play

[00:11:25] shifted the nature

[00:11:26] of the game too

[00:11:27] because I think when you

[00:11:28] are playing online

[00:11:29] there's a certain,

[00:11:31] you know,

[00:11:32] like you don't have to have

[00:11:33] the poker face problem,

[00:11:34] there's less of like

[00:11:35] the chit-chat and reading tales

[00:11:37] and so the game became

[00:11:38] more mathematical,

[00:11:39] it became more about like

[00:11:41] analyzing what's the correct move

[00:11:43] in the right position

[00:11:44] and I even allude to like

[00:11:45] you know MIT offered

[00:11:46] a poker theory course

[00:11:47] at their like

[00:11:48] Sloan School of Management

[00:11:49] and it's all like

[00:11:50] extremely esoteric math

[00:11:52] for like what's the right move

[00:11:53] in the right situations and stuff

[00:11:55] which is so removed

[00:11:56] from Doyle Brunson,

[00:11:57] you know,

[00:11:58] his cowboy hat wearing

[00:11:59] kind of like well,

[00:12:00] you know,

[00:12:01] I gotta trust my gut on this thing,

[00:12:02] this person's sort of like this

[00:12:03] and I got kind of a feeling

[00:12:04] about this that you should do this

[00:12:06] and you know,

[00:12:07] Doyle Brunson was a good poker player

[00:12:08] but he relied,

[00:12:09] I think more on psychology

[00:12:10] than a lot of this

[00:12:11] like game theory analysis

[00:12:12] which is how the game has changed

[00:12:14] as it moved online.

[00:12:16] So you're saying with Annette,

[00:12:18] she had a couple of benefits

[00:12:21] that have sped along her learning.

[00:12:23] One is she was able to play

[00:12:24] a massive amount of hands

[00:12:25] and what's the benefit,

[00:12:27] we'll talk more about quantity

[00:12:28] but what's the benefit

[00:12:29] of playing a massive amount of hands?

[00:12:31] I mean if she has bad habits

[00:12:32] maybe that just underlines

[00:12:33] her bad habits.

[00:12:34] Yeah, I mean definitely quantity

[00:12:36] just alone does not guarantee

[00:12:38] proficiency and you know,

[00:12:40] I even talk about the alternate example

[00:12:41] where you know,

[00:12:42] you have psychologists

[00:12:44] or psychiatrists

[00:12:45] who have to make predictions

[00:12:46] and they have tons of experience

[00:12:47] and they tend to make bad predictions.

[00:12:49] So I don't think it's necessarily

[00:12:50] the case to just doing lots

[00:12:51] and lots of practice

[00:12:52] makes you better

[00:12:53] but for a game like poker

[00:12:54] which is played under uncertainty

[00:12:55] so you could like make a decision

[00:12:57] and maybe the decision

[00:12:58] is the right decision

[00:12:59] but you'll only find out

[00:13:01] whether you won like 55% of the time.

[00:13:03] So just to train your intuition on that,

[00:13:05] you have to play that exact situation

[00:13:07] you know, multiple times

[00:13:09] maybe even dozens of times

[00:13:10] before you have like a real good feeling

[00:13:12] for what's the right move

[00:13:14] in that situation

[00:13:15] and so having a lot of experience,

[00:13:18] having a lot of exposure

[00:13:19] tends to average out

[00:13:20] a lot of these sort of idiosyncrasies

[00:13:22] whereas you know,

[00:13:23] if you weren't too sophisticated

[00:13:24] in playing

[00:13:25] and you just played one hand

[00:13:26] you did this one one time

[00:13:27] and it worked

[00:13:28] or you did it three times

[00:13:29] and it worked

[00:13:30] you know, that may not be enough

[00:13:31] to really like statistically

[00:13:32] have that good intuition about it.

[00:13:33] So I think the quantity helps

[00:13:35] with averaging out outcomes.

[00:13:36] I think it's certainly true

[00:13:37] of lots of skills

[00:13:38] but then also the fact

[00:13:40] that you're playing online

[00:13:41] you're getting this huge hand practice

[00:13:43] you can do this analysis

[00:13:45] you can do this calibration

[00:13:46] so that you know

[00:13:47] you have some mental model

[00:13:48] of like what is the correct move

[00:13:49] in certain situations

[00:13:50] and so you can very clearly see

[00:13:52] whether you're making those

[00:13:53] 55% bets in your favor

[00:13:55] or you're making 45% bets

[00:13:56] in your favor

[00:13:57] and losing a lot in the long run.

[00:13:59] Did she have a coach?

[00:14:00] I don't think so.

[00:14:02] You know and that's like

[00:14:03] a really funny case

[00:14:04] because she just seemed

[00:14:05] like someone who just

[00:14:06] you know, had a knack for poker

[00:14:08] played it a ton

[00:14:09] you know, I talk about Tetris people

[00:14:10] at the beginning of the book

[00:14:11] but like some kids

[00:14:12] you know, they just get obsessed

[00:14:13] with something

[00:14:14] they do it a lot

[00:14:15] and because it's a narrow skill

[00:14:16] they get really good at it

[00:14:17] and yeah, she was like

[00:14:19] started off with the free money games

[00:14:21] because of course

[00:14:22] she legally isn't allowed to gamble

[00:14:23] won some money through that

[00:14:24] and then just like bankrolled

[00:14:25] this like huge fortune from there

[00:14:28] so I mean, I don't know

[00:14:29] I think maybe she

[00:14:31] when she was getting

[00:14:32] a little bit more advanced

[00:14:33] she was definitely

[00:14:34] in the poker community

[00:14:35] she knows some of these people

[00:14:36] there's even a video online

[00:14:38] of her playing Doyle Brunson

[00:14:39] that I remember watching

[00:14:41] so like she would have been

[00:14:42] had access to those peers

[00:14:44] and networks and knowledge

[00:14:46] I don't want to say

[00:14:47] she's just like out of the blue

[00:14:48] but definitely like her early success

[00:14:50] I mean, she's like a high school kid

[00:14:51] she's not, you know

[00:14:52] she's not even legally allowed

[00:14:53] to gamble, yeah.

[00:14:54] Because the benefit of a coach

[00:14:56] or some, she needs some way

[00:14:58] to understand, to get feedback

[00:15:01] so like she makes a bet in her hand

[00:15:04] she tries something

[00:15:05] and it doesn't work

[00:15:06] she still needs to know

[00:15:08] was that the right decision or not

[00:15:09] so like let's say she

[00:15:11] just to use some poker terms

[00:15:13] she semi-bluffed on the flop

[00:15:16] and it didn't work out

[00:15:18] but her decision to bluff was correct

[00:15:22] and so she has to know

[00:15:23] how to categorize

[00:15:24] the different situations that arise

[00:15:26] like why is it a semi-bluff

[00:15:28] versus a bluff for instance

[00:15:29] what is the situation

[00:15:32] does she have a pair of sevens

[00:15:34] so she might have the highest hand

[00:15:35] but she probably doesn't

[00:15:36] but then everybody folds

[00:15:38] and so it was a good decision

[00:15:40] she has to know how to categorize

[00:15:42] or label the situations

[00:15:43] so that when she says

[00:15:44] oh I'm in the same situation

[00:15:45] I was in before

[00:15:46] and I knew that was 55% chance

[00:15:49] of being good

[00:15:50] I should do it again.

[00:15:51] Yeah, I mean well poker just has this

[00:15:53] strong advantage

[00:15:54] in that it's a game

[00:15:55] that's really like it is somewhat

[00:15:57] at least mathematically tractable

[00:15:59] so there is in some sense

[00:16:01] a correct answer for certain moves

[00:16:03] of like you know

[00:16:04] should I have done this

[00:16:05] given what I knew

[00:16:06] I mean the thing that makes it more complicated

[00:16:09] is there's this sort of recursive game

[00:16:10] of like well I know that they know

[00:16:12] that I know that you know

[00:16:13] like this kind of back and forth

[00:16:14] but I mean these are mathematical things

[00:16:17] that you can work out

[00:16:18] so this is something like

[00:16:19] you feed your hand history

[00:16:20] into like poker software

[00:16:21] and you can get information

[00:16:23] about like how you're playing

[00:16:25] and so if you think

[00:16:26] oh well you know

[00:16:27] like I'm playing this way

[00:16:29] but then you're finding out

[00:16:30] okay you're actually playing

[00:16:31] a little too loose here

[00:16:32] you're playing these hands

[00:16:34] maybe more than you should be playing them

[00:16:35] compared to like where

[00:16:36] you're playing other hands

[00:16:37] and that's kind of creating

[00:16:38] a pattern in your play

[00:16:39] and this kind of thing

[00:16:40] so I do think like

[00:16:41] the thing that a coach does

[00:16:42] is they stand outside yourself

[00:16:44] and they give you information

[00:16:45] that maybe you don't have access to

[00:16:46] and so in games that are

[00:16:49] you know mathematical

[00:16:50] like chess is another

[00:16:51] really good example

[00:16:52] where you know

[00:16:53] you can run your moves

[00:16:54] into like a chess engine

[00:16:55] and it can tell you

[00:16:56] whether or not

[00:16:57] it thinks they're good moves

[00:16:58] like that's in some ways

[00:16:59] better than the chess coaches

[00:17:00] of the like you know

[00:17:01] Bobby Fischer days

[00:17:02] because the chess engine

[00:17:03] is much better at chess

[00:17:04] than any human being is

[00:17:05] so I think having access to models

[00:17:08] having access to things

[00:17:09] is very important

[00:17:10] particularly for a game like poker

[00:17:12] at least as a first pass

[00:17:13] I mean it doesn't deal

[00:17:14] with the human element

[00:17:15] but it gives you that kind of

[00:17:17] am I in the right ballpark

[00:17:18] and I think Annette

[00:17:19] you know she even talks about

[00:17:20] playing games

[00:17:21] where she played it blindfolded

[00:17:23] she seemed to be someone

[00:17:24] who played a lot from position

[00:17:25] and so her sort of whole strategy

[00:17:27] her whole thinking

[00:17:28] was kind of like

[00:17:29] you know knowing that

[00:17:30] okay I'm in this position

[00:17:31] in the place

[00:17:32] so I need to play this way

[00:17:33] not even based on

[00:17:34] what my own cards are

[00:17:35] but just based on

[00:17:36] where I am in the sequence of bets

[00:17:38] yeah so she's able to somehow

[00:17:40] understand the situation

[00:17:43] she's in

[00:17:44] like she's in early position

[00:17:46] she's got a low pair

[00:17:48] a mid pair

[00:17:49] a high pair

[00:17:50] she knows how to play

[00:17:51] in different situations

[00:17:52] and I think

[00:17:53] so there's quantity

[00:17:55] but also kind of labeling

[00:17:57] what each situation is

[00:17:58] and then based on the label

[00:18:01] and the decision you make

[00:18:02] in that situation

[00:18:03] getting some feedback

[00:18:05] and then repeat

[00:18:06] but then having an enormous

[00:18:07] number of repetitions

[00:18:09] yeah and the feedback

[00:18:10] I think the feedback

[00:18:11] is important in a poker game

[00:18:12] because it's like

[00:18:13] assuming you're not cheating

[00:18:14] or assuming you're not

[00:18:15] using software

[00:18:16] while you're doing it

[00:18:17] you are making these

[00:18:18] fairly fast decisions

[00:18:19] even if you're basing some math

[00:18:21] you're doing some calculation

[00:18:22] of pot odds

[00:18:23] and this kind of thing

[00:18:24] you know you're using

[00:18:25] your fallible human computer

[00:18:26] to make these assessments

[00:18:27] and so I think

[00:18:28] where the feedback really helps

[00:18:29] is in calibrating

[00:18:30] like do the gut decisions

[00:18:33] that I'm making in these moments

[00:18:34] actually match up

[00:18:35] with what I think

[00:18:36] the correct strategy should be

[00:18:37] or what I think

[00:18:38] I should be playing

[00:18:39] and so the additional discrepancy

[00:18:42] is like with what I think

[00:18:43] I should be playing

[00:18:44] versus like what is

[00:18:45] a successful play

[00:18:46] and so I think for that latter one

[00:18:47] that's where poker theory

[00:18:48] that's where knowing other players

[00:18:50] that's where you're getting

[00:18:51] this information about like

[00:18:52] you know whether or not

[00:18:54] in general you're playing

[00:18:55] too loose or too tight

[00:18:56] or too you know whatever

[00:19:01] Take a quick break

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[00:19:53] I mean there's so many things

[00:19:57] you talk about here

[00:19:58] I really think very important

[00:19:59] is quantity

[00:20:01] and like Picasso's created

[00:20:03] over a hundred thousand works of art

[00:20:05] Edison's had thousands of inventions

[00:20:07] I remember when the Andy Warhol

[00:20:10] museum opened up

[00:20:11] I was living in Pittsburgh

[00:20:12] when I was going to grad school

[00:20:13] there

[00:20:14] The Andy Warhol museum opened up

[00:20:15] and there were nine floors

[00:20:16] and the first day I remember

[00:20:19] walking through all nine floors

[00:20:20] thinking oh my gosh

[00:20:21] like how could he fill

[00:20:23] nine floors of a museum

[00:20:24] but quantity is a real good way

[00:20:28] to get good

[00:20:29] Yeah and I mean it's interesting

[00:20:30] like this chapter that I wrote

[00:20:32] was one of those ones

[00:20:33] where like the research

[00:20:34] I thought was so interesting

[00:20:35] and surprising

[00:20:36] I was like oh I feel like

[00:20:37] I need to share this

[00:20:38] So this is based on Dean Simonton

[00:20:40] He's a psychologist

[00:20:42] whose primary method

[00:20:43] is historical

[00:20:44] so he looks at like

[00:20:45] tons and tons of case studies

[00:20:46] and he takes like

[00:20:47] quantitative data about it

[00:20:48] so he's done a lot of stuff

[00:20:50] on like what's the career trajectory

[00:20:52] of people in different fields

[00:20:54] artists, scientists

[00:20:55] eminent individuals

[00:20:57] you know what is their

[00:20:58] shape of their career trajectory

[00:20:59] when did they have their successes

[00:21:01] their breakouts

[00:21:03] this kind of thing

[00:21:04] so he's answered lots of questions

[00:21:06] using this kind of historical data

[00:21:08] and one of the things

[00:21:09] that I found very provocative

[00:21:10] about his research

[00:21:11] is that he has this idea

[00:21:12] he calls the equal odds baseline

[00:21:14] which is basically that

[00:21:15] once you sort of reach

[00:21:17] a threshold of producing

[00:21:19] kind of eminent work

[00:21:21] so I mean his samples

[00:21:22] because they focus on

[00:21:23] tend to focus on people

[00:21:24] who are like already

[00:21:25] kind of at the top of the field

[00:21:26] we're sort of omitting

[00:21:27] maybe the people who

[00:21:28] you know they haven't yet

[00:21:29] reached a point where

[00:21:30] they're you know

[00:21:31] publishing a recognized play

[00:21:32] or producing papers

[00:21:33] for a journal or something

[00:21:34] but once they're in this zone

[00:21:36] there tends to be

[00:21:37] a fairly flat ratio

[00:21:39] in terms of the work

[00:21:41] that they're doing

[00:21:42] and how likely it is

[00:21:44] to be successful

[00:21:45] or the quality of it

[00:21:46] which to me is kind of surprising

[00:21:47] because it kind of contradicts

[00:21:48] a few different models

[00:21:49] he might have

[00:21:50] you might have the model

[00:21:51] that like you know

[00:21:52] the Anders Ericsson

[00:21:53] like people just continually

[00:21:54] getting better

[00:21:55] and I mean that's not saying

[00:21:56] that's impossible

[00:21:57] but it just seems to deny

[00:21:58] that that's actually

[00:21:59] what's happening

[00:22:00] or the idea that you have

[00:22:01] like youthful genius

[00:22:02] so that people

[00:22:03] their quality drops off

[00:22:05] as they get older

[00:22:06] you know they have that spark

[00:22:07] when they're 20

[00:22:08] but when they're 75

[00:22:09] they lose it

[00:22:10] and you know

[00:22:11] he notices that

[00:22:12] people's productivity

[00:22:13] goes up and goes down

[00:22:14] but their hit rate

[00:22:16] is relatively stable over time

[00:22:18] and just that the idea

[00:22:20] that quality and quantity

[00:22:23] don't seem to be in tradeoff

[00:22:25] and that in fact

[00:22:26] they're like highly correlated

[00:22:27] in these historical samples

[00:22:28] seems to suggest that you know

[00:22:30] once you get to some sort

[00:22:31] of threshold

[00:22:32] there's a great deal

[00:22:33] of randomness

[00:22:34] so it's a little bit

[00:22:35] like the poker players

[00:22:36] like you have to make

[00:22:37] quite a few bets

[00:22:38] in order for it to like

[00:22:39] average out

[00:22:40] and for you to have

[00:22:41] some big wins

[00:22:42] and so I think

[00:22:43] that's a bit of a different way

[00:22:44] of thinking about creative success

[00:22:45] than we're often taught

[00:22:46] which is you know

[00:22:47] quantity and quality

[00:22:48] are like sharply opposed

[00:22:49] and you know

[00:22:50] you can either make something good

[00:22:51] or you can make a lot of something

[00:22:52] and you have to really choose

[00:22:53] what kind of creative

[00:22:54] you're going to be.

[00:22:56] But like

[00:22:57] let's say I'm playing golf

[00:22:58] okay

[00:22:59] in order to get better

[00:23:01] and I'm not a golf player at all

[00:23:02] I've played like maybe

[00:23:03] twice in my life

[00:23:04] but it seems like

[00:23:05] in order to get better at golf

[00:23:06] and you have a great quote

[00:23:08] I think this is about

[00:23:09] this guy who created

[00:23:11] a training program

[00:23:12] for flying airplanes

[00:23:13] and he basically says

[00:23:14] in order to get better

[00:23:15] at flying an airplane

[00:23:16] you have to fly an airplane.

[00:23:18] You can't just watch

[00:23:19] like I can't just watch videos

[00:23:20] about people playing golf

[00:23:22] oh here's how Tiger Woods swings

[00:23:24] like maybe I learn

[00:23:25] a little bit from that

[00:23:26] but ultimately

[00:23:27] I have to swing a golf club

[00:23:29] a lot

[00:23:30] and get feedback

[00:23:32] this is more to the

[00:23:33] Anders Ericsson's point

[00:23:34] it's quantity plus feedback

[00:23:37] and that's where

[00:23:38] I guess the 10,000 hours comes in

[00:23:40] and it's not good enough

[00:23:42] just to be taught

[00:23:43] in a classroom

[00:23:44] you have to actually do something.

[00:23:45] Well I mean

[00:23:46] a lot of skills

[00:23:47] especially as you sort of

[00:23:48] progress with them

[00:23:49] they become more specific

[00:23:51] they become more tuned

[00:23:52] to the environment

[00:23:53] that you practice in

[00:23:54] and so I think

[00:23:55] like a very common pattern

[00:23:57] amongst many skills

[00:23:58] and lots of different things

[00:23:59] so like I talk about

[00:24:00] pilot training

[00:24:01] is one example of this

[00:24:02] but you can think

[00:24:03] like of many many

[00:24:04] different subjects

[00:24:05] where this would apply

[00:24:06] is that in the

[00:24:07] very early phases

[00:24:08] there's a benefit

[00:24:09] to classroom instruction

[00:24:10] because classroom instruction

[00:24:11] tends to make

[00:24:12] like the explicit

[00:24:13] understanding

[00:24:14] of the skill

[00:24:15] a little easier

[00:24:16] like someone that tells you

[00:24:17] okay you know

[00:24:18] swing the club this way

[00:24:19] and then they'll show you

[00:24:20] and you watch them

[00:24:21] and that's beneficial

[00:24:22] if you've never seen

[00:24:23] anyone golf before

[00:24:24] and you try to do it yourself

[00:24:25] you're not going to

[00:24:26] like automatically recreate

[00:24:27] a really good golf swing

[00:24:28] but once you get past

[00:24:30] that sort of cognitive phase

[00:24:31] where you understand

[00:24:32] it intellectually

[00:24:33] I mean you're developing

[00:24:34] procedural skill

[00:24:35] you're developing

[00:24:36] this sort of

[00:24:37] you know I don't like

[00:24:38] the word muscle memory

[00:24:39] but that's basically what it is

[00:24:40] it's a skill

[00:24:41] that you're applying unconsciously

[00:24:42] and sitting more time

[00:24:43] in a classroom

[00:24:44] is probably not going to help with that.

[00:24:45] Right like it

[00:24:46] like I took five years of French

[00:24:48] for instance

[00:24:49] but I can't speak

[00:24:50] a word of French

[00:24:52] and I couldn't speak

[00:24:54] a word of French

[00:24:55] the day after my fifth year

[00:24:57] of French studying

[00:24:58] you know took place

[00:24:59] and even computer science

[00:25:01] where I was an undergrad

[00:25:03] in computer science

[00:25:04] I went to grad school

[00:25:05] for computer science

[00:25:06] I was a programmer

[00:25:07] but when I was in

[00:25:08] a real world job setting

[00:25:09] I really couldn't program

[00:25:12] and so doing

[00:25:13] is incredibly important

[00:25:15] as opposed to the classroom

[00:25:17] which makes me question

[00:25:18] a lot of today's

[00:25:19] educational methods

[00:25:20] but one important thing

[00:25:22] is pattern recognition

[00:25:25] and so I play chess

[00:25:28] and you discussed this

[00:25:29] in the book

[00:25:30] that basically

[00:25:32] chess players

[00:25:33] when they are trying

[00:25:34] to recreate a position

[00:25:36] that they've seen

[00:25:37] for let's say 60 seconds

[00:25:39] they recreate it

[00:25:40] by looking

[00:25:41] they don't remember

[00:25:42] where every single piece is

[00:25:44] on the 64 squares

[00:25:45] they recognize

[00:25:48] oh you know

[00:25:49] I castled my king over here

[00:25:51] my bishops are in these formations

[00:25:54] whereas someone who's never played

[00:25:56] is trying to remember

[00:25:57] what piece is on every 64 squares

[00:25:58] and fails remarkably

[00:26:00] and even like a world level chess player

[00:26:04] if he's shown a random position

[00:26:05] is no better than the amateur

[00:26:07] so if they see a position

[00:26:09] from a game

[00:26:10] it's really not 64 squares

[00:26:12] it's like four or five configurations

[00:26:14] of pieces

[00:26:15] and that's easy to remember

[00:26:17] as opposed to 64 things

[00:26:18] you have to remember

[00:26:19] yeah so this idea

[00:26:21] that we're talking about here

[00:26:22] is called chunking

[00:26:23] and it was

[00:26:24] so chess has kind of

[00:26:25] has like a long history

[00:26:27] in the cognitive science

[00:26:28] of skill development

[00:26:30] and studying a lot

[00:26:31] of these differences

[00:26:32] and so a lot of the classic examples

[00:26:33] are with chess

[00:26:34] but the idea is like

[00:26:36] how does the grandmaster think

[00:26:38] like how are they able

[00:26:39] to manipulate more

[00:26:41] and one of the major

[00:26:42] kind of limitations

[00:26:43] on performing complicated skills

[00:26:45] is that we have this thing

[00:26:46] called working memory

[00:26:47] it's what we're keeping in mind

[00:26:49] at any particular time

[00:26:50] and it's famously very limited

[00:26:52] you know you can't actually

[00:26:53] keep that many things

[00:26:54] in your head at once

[00:26:55] and so one of the ways

[00:26:56] that people who are quite good

[00:26:57] at a skill get around this

[00:26:59] is that you assemble

[00:27:00] through experience

[00:27:01] through long-term memory patterns

[00:27:03] that kind of are assemblages

[00:27:06] of material

[00:27:07] that you have in the environment

[00:27:08] so you don't have to keep

[00:27:09] as many things in mind at once

[00:27:10] so I think the like

[00:27:12] the really easy example

[00:27:13] to like show this at work

[00:27:14] is if I just like

[00:27:15] spouted off like a random

[00:27:16] nine sequence of letters

[00:27:18] it'd be very difficult

[00:27:19] for you to just remember them

[00:27:20] like you just recall all of them

[00:27:22] but if I said

[00:27:23] those same nine letters

[00:27:24] but they were reorganized

[00:27:25] into acronyms you know

[00:27:26] like FBI, MBA, you know

[00:27:28] NBA that kind of thing

[00:27:29] you would remember them easily

[00:27:31] because now you only

[00:27:32] have to remember three things

[00:27:33] instead of nine things

[00:27:34] and that's much more

[00:27:35] within the capacity

[00:27:36] of human working memory

[00:27:38] and so the idea here

[00:27:39] is that the grandmaster

[00:27:40] is doing something similar

[00:27:41] they don't see the board

[00:27:42] and see you know

[00:27:43] okay well the king is here

[00:27:44] the pawn is here

[00:27:45] the pawn is here

[00:27:46] you know they are recognizing

[00:27:47] the position

[00:27:48] but they recognize

[00:27:49] the meaning of those patterns

[00:27:50] that like oh yeah

[00:27:51] well this was the

[00:27:52] you know Berlin defense

[00:27:54] but they made this option instead

[00:27:55] or you know

[00:27:56] they got into this situation

[00:27:57] this is castle on this side

[00:27:58] and so because they have

[00:27:59] these sort of like

[00:28:00] the equivalent of acronyms

[00:28:01] of the information

[00:28:02] in their head

[00:28:03] they can recall a lot more

[00:28:04] and so the classic experiment

[00:28:06] is that you yeah

[00:28:07] you set up the board

[00:28:08] and you wipe it

[00:28:09] and you ask them to recreate it

[00:28:10] and grandmasters can assemble

[00:28:12] much more of the board

[00:28:13] but if you just scramble

[00:28:14] the pieces

[00:28:15] and you put them in a place

[00:28:16] that like no game

[00:28:17] would ever result in that

[00:28:18] they don't have acronyms

[00:28:19] for those positions

[00:28:20] and so they don't do much

[00:28:21] better than novices.

[00:28:22] Right it's as if

[00:28:23] you give someone

[00:28:24] a string of letters

[00:28:25] and they actually

[00:28:26] can't reform them

[00:28:28] into acronyms

[00:28:29] maybe there are no acronyms

[00:28:30] with those letters

[00:28:31] and so now they're just

[00:28:32] like anybody else

[00:28:33] who has to remember

[00:28:35] a string of 20 letters

[00:28:36] as opposed to four acronyms.

[00:28:38] Yeah and I mean

[00:28:39] I think one of the things

[00:28:40] that is like important

[00:28:41] to keep in mind

[00:28:42] is that this working memory

[00:28:43] is central to

[00:28:44] what we often think about

[00:28:45] it as intelligence

[00:28:46] that you know

[00:28:47] that's it's pretty tightly linked

[00:28:48] to how smart

[00:28:49] do we think someone is

[00:28:50] is probably pretty closely related

[00:28:51] to like what is their

[00:28:52] raw working memory capacity

[00:28:53] but in a particular skill domain

[00:28:56] because of this chunking effect

[00:28:57] you effectively have

[00:28:58] more working memory capacity

[00:28:59] when you have more experience

[00:29:01] so that means like

[00:29:02] if you are totally new

[00:29:03] to a domain

[00:29:04] it's kind of like

[00:29:05] being a lot less smart

[00:29:06] because you aren't able

[00:29:07] to deal with as much information

[00:29:09] and so this has a very strong impact

[00:29:11] on like what's the right way

[00:29:12] to learn skills

[00:29:13] because early on

[00:29:14] you know the situation

[00:29:15] is just too complicated

[00:29:16] you can't keep it in your head

[00:29:17] and so you like

[00:29:18] you know make mistakes

[00:29:19] that for someone

[00:29:20] who's very seasoned

[00:29:21] they can easily keep it

[00:29:22] in their head

[00:29:23] they're going to face

[00:29:24] totally different problems

[00:29:25] with learning and improvement.

[00:29:26] So like

[00:29:27] so like

[00:29:28] so it seems like

[00:29:29] quantity

[00:29:30] in order to get

[00:29:31] exposure

[00:29:34] to lots of acronyms

[00:29:36] like in the string of letters example

[00:29:37] like studying all the acronyms ever

[00:29:40] and then having the ability

[00:29:41] to reform a string of random letters

[00:29:43] into acronyms

[00:29:44] would be a skill for memorizing

[00:29:46] long strings of letters

[00:29:48] so you need to be exposed

[00:29:50] to a lot of situations

[00:29:53] like in the poker example

[00:29:56] Annette needs to be exposed

[00:29:57] to lots of poker hands

[00:29:59] and then to categorize them

[00:30:01] into if then

[00:30:03] so if I'm in this situation

[00:30:05] then do this

[00:30:06] and that somehow involves

[00:30:08] either like a computer

[00:30:10] to tell her if she's right or wrong

[00:30:11] or a coach

[00:30:12] or whatever

[00:30:13] so quantity

[00:30:15] plus

[00:30:16] some sort of

[00:30:20] somebody who's going to tell you

[00:30:22] this is a chunk

[00:30:23] and then

[00:30:24] and then being able to

[00:30:27] have the memory

[00:30:29] to remember all these chunks

[00:30:30] yeah

[00:30:31] I mean

[00:30:32] I think that often

[00:30:33] like when we're talking about poker

[00:30:34] for instance

[00:30:35] there's probably some

[00:30:36] idealized strategy

[00:30:38] so you have some strategy

[00:30:39] that would be

[00:30:40] okay well

[00:30:41] I'm going to play these hands

[00:30:42] this way from this position

[00:30:44] and so

[00:30:45] you know you can imagine it

[00:30:46] like yeah if it's poker

[00:30:47] it's probably going to be

[00:30:48] some kind of table

[00:30:49] and maybe you're adjusting it

[00:30:50] based on the players

[00:30:51] you're playing against

[00:30:52] and this kind of thing

[00:30:53] and the difficulty is that

[00:30:54] when you're starting out

[00:30:55] keeping that table in your head

[00:30:56] and keeping that strategy

[00:30:57] like fixed

[00:30:58] in an actual game

[00:30:59] is basically impossible

[00:31:00] so that's what the learning

[00:31:01] is coming in

[00:31:02] is that you are

[00:31:03] doing things

[00:31:04] and comparing it to

[00:31:05] what you should have been doing

[00:31:06] and then like trying to

[00:31:07] you know build that experience

[00:31:08] for next time

[00:31:09] so definitely repetition

[00:31:10] and exposure to lots of information

[00:31:13] is going to be helpful

[00:31:14] it's going to be necessary

[00:31:15] for a lot of skills

[00:31:16] that have a lot of

[00:31:17] individual building blocks

[00:31:18] but again if you don't

[00:31:19] have that strategy

[00:31:20] if you don't have the like

[00:31:21] the right thing

[00:31:22] you're comparing it to

[00:31:23] you can get lots and lots

[00:31:24] of experience

[00:31:25] and just you know

[00:31:26] not learn anything

[00:31:27] or not make that much progress

[00:31:28] another interesting thing

[00:31:29] is the difference between

[00:31:30] variability and consistency

[00:31:33] so like when we learn

[00:31:34] math in school

[00:31:37] let's say in high school

[00:31:38] you start off with

[00:31:40] okay now we're going to learn

[00:31:41] this type of equation

[00:31:43] and then our test at the end

[00:31:44] is only about

[00:31:45] that type of equation

[00:31:46] then we learn how to solve

[00:31:47] another type of equation

[00:31:48] then the test at the end

[00:31:49] is only about that

[00:31:50] we have the final

[00:31:51] and it might even

[00:31:52] the final might even

[00:31:53] be organized chronologically

[00:31:55] like okay it starts off

[00:31:56] with the early equations

[00:31:58] then the next part

[00:31:59] is the second equation

[00:32:00] and the argument you make

[00:32:02] backed up by research

[00:32:03] is that it's important

[00:32:05] to not test in order

[00:32:07] but to almost randomize

[00:32:09] like you've learned

[00:32:11] a bunch of things

[00:32:12] now let's randomize

[00:32:13] the questions when you're tested

[00:32:15] so that your brain

[00:32:16] has to get used to

[00:32:17] also identifying

[00:32:18] what type of situation

[00:32:19] I'm in as opposed to

[00:32:20] making it easy to figure out

[00:32:21] what type of situation

[00:32:22] I'm in

[00:32:23] yeah so this is an idea

[00:32:24] called contextual interference

[00:32:26] and the basic way

[00:32:27] you can summarize it

[00:32:28] is there's like knowing

[00:32:29] how to do something

[00:32:30] so like knowing how

[00:32:31] to solve an algebra problem

[00:32:32] and then there's

[00:32:33] knowing when you need

[00:32:34] to access and use

[00:32:35] that knowledge

[00:32:36] and so the thing is

[00:32:37] is that obviously

[00:32:38] it's easier to learn

[00:32:39] how to do something

[00:32:40] if you do it under

[00:32:41] very regular constrained

[00:32:42] conditions where like

[00:32:43] I tell you exactly

[00:32:44] what you need to do

[00:32:45] but that is the easiest

[00:32:47] possible situation

[00:32:48] for when do I use

[00:32:49] this knowledge

[00:32:50] when do I use it

[00:32:51] and so you know

[00:32:52] in schools because often

[00:32:54] the applications are

[00:32:55] a little bit more distant

[00:32:57] there is tend to be

[00:32:58] a prioritization of like

[00:33:00] actually learning

[00:33:02] the procedure

[00:33:03] but there can often

[00:33:04] be a deficit in

[00:33:05] applying the procedure

[00:33:07] so you know we were

[00:33:08] talking about this

[00:33:09] like you do unit one

[00:33:10] and you do unit one

[00:33:11] questions well already

[00:33:12] your brain is like

[00:33:13] well it's got to be

[00:33:14] something from unit one

[00:33:15] so if I you know

[00:33:16] I learn five things

[00:33:17] and then that's how I

[00:33:18] you know I pattern match

[00:33:19] to what variables are there

[00:33:21] and then I apply it

[00:33:22] whereas you know

[00:33:23] if you think of yourself

[00:33:24] in the overall context

[00:33:25] of the classroom

[00:33:26] well there may be

[00:33:27] ten units so maybe

[00:33:28] there is 50 things

[00:33:29] that you were supposed

[00:33:30] to know how to do

[00:33:31] but if you really

[00:33:32] think about it

[00:33:33] you know once you're

[00:33:34] outside of the classroom

[00:33:35] and then you're in real life

[00:33:36] and someone throws you

[00:33:37] a quantitative problem

[00:33:38] that like maybe

[00:33:39] that knowledge that

[00:33:40] you used in the class

[00:33:41] could apply

[00:33:42] what's the chances

[00:33:43] that you retrieve it

[00:33:44] well probably pretty low

[00:33:45] because you're not just

[00:33:46] doing it like

[00:33:47] you're doing it

[00:33:48] and then also

[00:33:49] the possibility

[00:33:50] that the right answer

[00:33:51] is not something

[00:33:52] you've learned before

[00:33:53] and so this

[00:33:54] variable practice

[00:33:55] this you know

[00:33:56] mixing things up

[00:33:57] is about making

[00:33:58] that process of retrieving

[00:33:59] the right knowledge

[00:34:00] at the right time

[00:34:01] easier and that's

[00:34:02] really important

[00:34:03] for flexible skills

[00:34:04] for being able to

[00:34:05] apply skills broadly

[00:34:06] to invent things

[00:34:07] to improvise.

[00:34:08] Yeah I'll give you

[00:34:09] an example in chess

[00:34:10] so there's a

[00:34:11] category of problems

[00:34:12] to get better

[00:34:13] to get better at chess

[00:34:14] often people have

[00:34:15] a hard time

[00:34:16] trying to solve problems

[00:34:17] because you can't

[00:34:18] always be playing games

[00:34:19] so there might be

[00:34:20] a problem that says

[00:34:21] white to move

[00:34:22] and win in two moves

[00:34:23] and so you know

[00:34:24] you're in a situation

[00:34:25] where white can win

[00:34:26] in two moves

[00:34:27] so you're basically

[00:34:28] just looking for like

[00:34:29] the most crazy extreme

[00:34:30] moves to solve this problem

[00:34:31] and you know

[00:34:32] it's going to win

[00:34:33] whereas if you're

[00:34:34] in a real game

[00:34:35] you don't know

[00:34:36] if white's winning

[00:34:37] or black's winning

[00:34:38] maybe it's black

[00:34:39] to win in two moves

[00:34:40] and you're trying

[00:34:41] to win in two moves

[00:34:42] for white

[00:34:43] you just don't know

[00:34:44] and so I think

[00:34:45] it's a new thing

[00:34:46] in chess

[00:34:47] people realizing

[00:34:48] that variability

[00:34:49] is important

[00:34:50] so oh maybe

[00:34:51] it's white to move

[00:34:52] and win

[00:34:53] and maybe in this

[00:34:54] next problem

[00:34:55] you have to figure out

[00:34:56] who's winning

[00:34:57] and then what

[00:34:58] maybe you have to defend

[00:34:59] maybe it's white

[00:35:00] to move and defend

[00:35:01] against black moving

[00:35:02] but that variability

[00:35:03] is sort of a fairly

[00:35:04] new thing in chess learning

[00:35:05] I'm trying to think

[00:35:06] like for language learning

[00:35:07] it might be a similar thing

[00:35:08] like oh instead of

[00:35:09] maybe one week

[00:35:10] in class

[00:35:11] this is phrases

[00:35:12] you use in a restaurant

[00:35:13] and here's another one

[00:35:14] phrases you use

[00:35:15] in a job interview

[00:35:17] but in a test

[00:35:19] you should mix it up

[00:35:20] like if someone says this

[00:35:22] say this

[00:35:23] and you should mix it up

[00:35:24] depending on

[00:35:25] and you have to figure out

[00:35:26] the situation also.

[00:35:27] Yeah I mean

[00:35:28] I think you definitely

[00:35:29] want to expand

[00:35:30] the range of situations

[00:35:32] you apply it

[00:35:33] to match where you think

[00:35:34] you're actually going

[00:35:35] to use this skill

[00:35:36] because I think

[00:35:37] one of the main difficulties

[00:35:38] we have with learning things

[00:35:39] is that you can put knowledge

[00:35:40] in your head

[00:35:41] but in order for it

[00:35:42] to be useful

[00:35:43] you have to get it out

[00:35:44] at the right time

[00:35:45] and so we have

[00:35:46] you know

[00:35:47] we have huge amounts

[00:35:48] of knowledge

[00:35:49] that we learned in school

[00:35:50] that we've learned from books

[00:35:51] learned these kind of things

[00:35:52] that if I give you

[00:35:53] a very specific prompt

[00:35:54] like something that really

[00:35:55] focuses in on that piece

[00:35:56] of knowledge

[00:35:57] you might even remember it

[00:35:58] you might be like

[00:35:59] oh yeah I sort of

[00:36:00] remember that book

[00:36:01] or I sort of remember

[00:36:02] that idea that I learned

[00:36:03] from school

[00:36:04] but if I don't give you

[00:36:05] that highly specific cue

[00:36:06] it's just not going to occur

[00:36:07] to you in a situation

[00:36:08] and so the real difficulty

[00:36:09] is that a lot of the problem

[00:36:10] situations that we face

[00:36:11] they don't have little

[00:36:12] strings attached

[00:36:13] with a tag saying

[00:36:14] this is the knowledge

[00:36:15] you need to solve this problem

[00:36:16] they don't say like

[00:36:17] oh unit one

[00:36:18] dot point one

[00:36:19] use the formula

[00:36:20] that you learned in class

[00:36:21] and so when you don't have

[00:36:22] that tag attached to it

[00:36:23] the retrieval problem

[00:36:24] becomes really important

[00:36:25] and so I think this is

[00:36:26] sort of something

[00:36:27] that's often missing

[00:36:28] from a lot of school services

[00:36:29] you talked about

[00:36:30] struggling learning French

[00:36:31] and I mean

[00:36:32] some of that is just

[00:36:33] that you're in the French context

[00:36:34] where you're learning

[00:36:35] some grammar pattern

[00:36:36] and it's saying

[00:36:37] okay practice the subjunctive

[00:36:38] but then you're not

[00:36:39] learning the grammar

[00:36:40] you're learning the subjunctive

[00:36:41] but I mean a big part of it

[00:36:42] is like when do I use

[00:36:43] the subjunctive

[00:36:44] like when is the situation

[00:36:45] when I'm having this conversation

[00:36:46] that I have to use

[00:36:47] the subjunctive

[00:36:48] and if you don't know that

[00:36:49] then it doesn't matter

[00:36:50] that you've memorized

[00:36:51] that well this is the correct

[00:36:52] way to conjugate it

[00:36:53] you know what I mean

[00:36:54] that's sort of a secondary thing

[00:36:55] so especially with

[00:36:56] school based knowledge

[00:36:57] I think this kind of

[00:36:58] variable practice

[00:36:59] retrieval practice

[00:37:00] applying in diverse contexts

[00:37:01] is often lacking

[00:37:25] It's a joyful day!

[00:37:27] It's a jaw-dropping spectacle

[00:37:29] that demands to be seen

[00:37:30] on the biggest screen possible

[00:37:31] I need to go

[00:37:32] Hang on

[00:37:34] It is our time

[00:37:36] Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes

[00:37:38] Now playing

[00:37:39] only in theaters

[00:37:40] Tickets on sale now

[00:37:41] Rated PG-13

[00:37:42] Some material may be inappropriate

[00:37:44] for children under 13

[00:37:47] So there's two skills

[00:37:50] in this context

[00:37:52] in this sense

[00:37:53] one is the skill of

[00:37:54] you know

[00:37:55] learning

[00:37:56] a lot of

[00:37:57] in this situation

[00:37:59] do this

[00:38:00] which is the problem

[00:38:01] with not having variables

[00:38:02] then there's the skill

[00:38:03] of identifying

[00:38:04] well what situation am I in

[00:38:05] so then I can apply that rule

[00:38:06] and that's difficult

[00:38:08] like that's not typically

[00:38:09] taught in school

[00:38:10] so

[00:38:12] the question

[00:38:13] so really let's take it

[00:38:14] all the way back

[00:38:15] let's say you wanted to learn

[00:38:16] golf

[00:38:17] or how to play the piano

[00:38:18] what would you personally

[00:38:19] start doing?

[00:38:21] Yeah so I think for piano

[00:38:22] I mean I haven't spent

[00:38:23] a lot of time doing

[00:38:24] the detailed research

[00:38:25] in piano

[00:38:26] so I think I probably

[00:38:27] would have more

[00:38:28] sophisticated opinions

[00:38:29] if I narrowed in

[00:38:30] on that particular topic

[00:38:31] but if I were just like

[00:38:32] okay I want to learn

[00:38:33] the piano now

[00:38:34] I think one of the first things

[00:38:35] I would do

[00:38:36] is focus on

[00:38:37] well what is the sort of

[00:38:38] like basic methods

[00:38:39] so like how should I have

[00:38:40] my hands over the keys

[00:38:41] where should I be pressing

[00:38:42] with which fingers

[00:38:43] I would look at like

[00:38:44] what are common

[00:38:45] like beginner crutches

[00:38:46] that you want to avoid

[00:38:47] because I know

[00:38:48] from talking to

[00:38:49] piano teachers

[00:38:50] Yeah so like

[00:38:51] what would you actually do

[00:38:52] like from a meta sense

[00:38:53] like how would you start

[00:38:54] organizing the learning

[00:38:55] Yeah

[00:38:56] What would you need

[00:38:57] in your arsenal

[00:38:58] what would you need

[00:38:59] in your toolbox

[00:39:00] to say I'm going to

[00:39:01] start learning piano

[00:39:02] a month from now

[00:39:03] so here's all the things

[00:39:04] I have to gather

[00:39:05] and put into place

[00:39:06] so I can start learning

[00:39:07] Yeah I mean the first thing

[00:39:08] I do whenever I'm tackling

[00:39:09] any new skill

[00:39:10] is I would look at like

[00:39:11] okay skim through some curricula

[00:39:12] that people have

[00:39:13] for teaching piano

[00:39:14] so like get like

[00:39:15] the top five books

[00:39:16] on learning piano

[00:39:17] skim through them

[00:39:18] what do they actually

[00:39:19] get you to practice

[00:39:20] what do they get you to do

[00:39:21] why do they get you

[00:39:22] to focus on doing

[00:39:23] I'd find a few piano tutors

[00:39:24] I would talk to them

[00:39:25] like what are the mistakes

[00:39:26] that beginners make

[00:39:27] that they get stuck with

[00:39:28] because piano is a motor skill

[00:39:29] it's like highly over learned

[00:39:31] and so if there's like

[00:39:33] well you're going to want

[00:39:34] to do this

[00:39:35] because it's more comfortable

[00:39:36] but it's going to

[00:39:37] screw you up later

[00:39:38] that's good to know

[00:39:39] because you know

[00:39:40] it's a little bit like

[00:39:41] if you're learning

[00:39:42] to touch type

[00:39:43] it's a lot easier

[00:39:44] to hunt and peck

[00:39:45] with two fingers

[00:39:46] in the beginning

[00:39:47] but that's a really bad

[00:39:48] habit to get into

[00:39:49] it's going to really

[00:39:50] impede your ability

[00:39:51] to type at like

[00:39:52] I would start with

[00:39:53] it would be like

[00:39:54] okay this is the sort of

[00:39:55] home row for the keys

[00:39:56] this is where you want to

[00:39:57] you hit this with this finger

[00:39:58] hit this with that finger

[00:39:59] you know practice doing it this way

[00:40:00] I would get those steps

[00:40:01] and then I would just build up

[00:40:02] a curriculum of like

[00:40:03] starting with

[00:40:04] simpler either songs

[00:40:05] or like drills

[00:40:06] and then just sort of

[00:40:07] building up until

[00:40:08] I can get more and more fluency

[00:40:09] and I think as you get better

[00:40:10] as well you can start

[00:40:11] to like branch out

[00:40:12] and be like

[00:40:13] well I want to be

[00:40:14] a jazz pianist

[00:40:15] or I want to play

[00:40:16] classical music

[00:40:17] or I want to play

[00:40:18] like you know

[00:40:19] little pop ditties

[00:40:20] that I've you know

[00:40:21] I've been doing sheet music for

[00:40:22] and so I think that

[00:40:23] kind of a way of like

[00:40:24] figuring out what the curriculum is

[00:40:25] how do people structure the skill

[00:40:26] how do people who've taught it

[00:40:27] for many years

[00:40:28] like what are the bad habits

[00:40:29] to avoid

[00:40:30] that would be the grounding

[00:40:31] and then you would be

[00:40:32] you know creating a practice

[00:40:33] sequence for yourself

[00:40:34] and hopefully having some coaching

[00:40:35] to like tell you

[00:40:36] you know what you're doing wrong

[00:40:37] and then let's go

[00:40:38] take it a step further

[00:40:39] what if you also wanted

[00:40:40] to be creative

[00:40:41] so creativity seems to be like

[00:40:43] a positive symptom

[00:40:46] of piano, music, whatever

[00:40:50] creativity is a symptom

[00:40:52] of knowing a lot

[00:40:53] so if you know a lot about

[00:40:54] it's hard to be creative

[00:40:55] it's hard to be a creative writer

[00:40:56] Kurt Vonnegut even said

[00:40:58] like don't experiment with grammar

[00:41:00] until you know the rules of grammar

[00:41:02] and what he's really saying is

[00:41:03] don't be a creative genius

[00:41:05] with writing your first novel

[00:41:07] like write first

[00:41:09] and get good

[00:41:10] and then you can start experimenting

[00:41:12] and you refer to this

[00:41:13] like you want to

[00:41:14] creativity is a way of expanding

[00:41:16] the problem space

[00:41:17] but first you have to know

[00:41:18] the problem space

[00:41:19] yeah so I do think that

[00:41:21] like for a skill like piano

[00:41:23] there's a bit of tension

[00:41:24] because there's this sort of

[00:41:25] largely procedural

[00:41:27] you know you could say

[00:41:29] almost like even like

[00:41:30] a muscular skill

[00:41:31] a motor skill

[00:41:32] of hitting the keys

[00:41:33] and I think that's probably

[00:41:34] different from the creative skill

[00:41:35] of original compositions

[00:41:37] so like you could be someone

[00:41:38] who's just literally

[00:41:39] writing notes on the page

[00:41:40] they can't play the piano at all

[00:41:42] and that would be

[00:41:43] a different kind of intellectual skill

[00:41:45] than playing the piano

[00:41:46] so I have a feeling

[00:41:47] that the creative skill

[00:41:48] probably depends on

[00:41:49] knowing a lot of music

[00:41:51] so you would know

[00:41:52] tons and tons of different music

[00:41:53] you'd know

[00:41:54] okay well this is

[00:41:55] like you'd have

[00:41:56] 18 different versions

[00:41:57] of the sheet music

[00:41:58] for like a sad song

[00:41:59] or a happy song in your head

[00:42:00] oh this is a

[00:42:01] you know a technique

[00:42:02] for doing this

[00:42:03] a technique for doing that

[00:42:04] you would have this huge library

[00:42:05] so that when you put things

[00:42:06] you're not like

[00:42:07] you're not plagiarizing

[00:42:08] but you are kind of like

[00:42:09] building off of these

[00:42:10] abstract patterns

[00:42:11] of like these are the things

[00:42:12] that are possible with the music

[00:42:14] and you know

[00:42:15] you could have that skill

[00:42:16] I think in theory

[00:42:17] without being able to play

[00:42:18] an instrument at all

[00:42:19] I think it's often

[00:42:21] intertwined with playing

[00:42:22] an instrument

[00:42:23] because when you can

[00:42:24] play the instrument

[00:42:25] you can hear it

[00:42:26] you can get like

[00:42:27] you get that self feedback

[00:42:28] but I think you know

[00:42:29] nowadays where you have

[00:42:30] so much like digital recording

[00:42:32] where you can actually

[00:42:33] just like take that sheet music

[00:42:34] put into a computer

[00:42:35] and like get the computer

[00:42:36] to play it

[00:42:37] it's not obvious to me

[00:42:38] that the like the you know

[00:42:40] the motor skill

[00:42:41] of playing the instrument

[00:42:42] is necessary for creativity

[00:42:44] although I'm sure

[00:42:45] I'll hear from some musicians

[00:42:46] that can maybe point to me

[00:42:47] for a reason why

[00:42:48] that's not true but

[00:42:49] No I mean there's

[00:42:50] look there are

[00:42:51] there are composers

[00:42:52] who are creative

[00:42:54] without knowing the instruments

[00:42:55] they were composing for

[00:42:56] so like

[00:42:57] maybe I'm wrong about this

[00:42:58] but I'm just going to use

[00:42:59] as an example

[00:43:00] Beethoven probably couldn't play

[00:43:02] every single instrument

[00:43:04] in a symphony

[00:43:05] but he could write symphonies

[00:43:06] because he knew music theory

[00:43:08] so like there's the motor skills

[00:43:10] but then there's the theory

[00:43:11] of why two notes

[00:43:12] sound good together

[00:43:13] why C E G

[00:43:15] is a major C chord

[00:43:17] and O

[00:43:18] when you go

[00:43:20] I don't know

[00:43:21] E flat

[00:43:22] now it's a minor chord

[00:43:23] and so it feels a little sadder

[00:43:25] so someone would have to teach you

[00:43:26] music theory

[00:43:27] like you have an example in here

[00:43:28] of a jazz musician

[00:43:29] jazz is known for

[00:43:31] improvising the notes

[00:43:33] and a guy who had just learned

[00:43:35] the motor skills basically

[00:43:38] he couldn't really

[00:43:39] do it as well

[00:43:40] until he learned

[00:43:41] kind of music theory as well

[00:43:43] yeah I mean

[00:43:44] jazz is kind of an interesting one

[00:43:46] because like the history of jazz

[00:43:48] is it sort of learned

[00:43:49] more informally

[00:43:50] like you know

[00:43:51] it kind of comes out

[00:43:52] of this culture

[00:43:53] of like black music

[00:43:54] in the United States

[00:43:55] and so it's learned

[00:43:57] a lot more informally

[00:43:58] at like jam sessions

[00:43:59] and this kind of stuff

[00:44:00] and so the lore

[00:44:02] of the music

[00:44:03] is much more based

[00:44:05] in like these individual communities

[00:44:07] playing with individual people

[00:44:08] as opposed to like

[00:44:09] a lot of classical music

[00:44:10] which has been

[00:44:11] written about and analyzed

[00:44:13] and dissected in books

[00:44:15] quite a bit

[00:44:16] and so I thought that was very interesting

[00:44:17] about this example

[00:44:18] that like people

[00:44:19] who spend a lot of time

[00:44:20] in the community

[00:44:21] and you've been playing

[00:44:22] and you've been rehearsing

[00:44:23] you've been working with people

[00:44:24] you develop that kind of library

[00:44:26] so you know

[00:44:27] one of the examples

[00:44:28] I think it was maybe

[00:44:29] Carmen Lundy

[00:44:30] I quote in the book

[00:44:31] she talks about how

[00:44:32] like in the beginning

[00:44:33] she could recognize jazz licks

[00:44:34] and then she was like

[00:44:35] oh this is bebop licks

[00:44:36] and then it's like

[00:44:37] oh this is a Sonny Rollins lick

[00:44:38] or this is a Charlie Parker lick

[00:44:39] like you've gotten

[00:44:40] to this specific thing

[00:44:41] where you know

[00:44:42] this little phrasing

[00:44:43] is associated with

[00:44:44] a particular performer

[00:44:45] which I mean

[00:44:46] for me who's not

[00:44:47] like very much

[00:44:48] outside the jazz world

[00:44:49] I'm listening to it

[00:44:50] and I'm like

[00:44:51] yeah that's jazz

[00:44:52] I don't have that level

[00:44:53] of nuance and sophistication

[00:44:54] and so there's something

[00:44:55] almost literary about it

[00:44:56] like the way that

[00:44:57] if you're a really great writer

[00:44:58] you know so much writing

[00:44:59] that you can't help

[00:45:00] but have illusions in your work

[00:45:02] just because that knowledge

[00:45:03] is going to be with you

[00:45:04] in your writing.

[00:45:05] But you know

[00:45:06] writing is an interesting domain too

[00:45:07] because you could

[00:45:09] let's say you read

[00:45:10] a thousand books

[00:45:11] or a thousand novels

[00:45:12] let's talk about fiction in general

[00:45:14] so a thousand novels

[00:45:15] and let's say you write

[00:45:16] a bunch of novels

[00:45:17] so you can tell

[00:45:18] you know what a pretty good story looks like

[00:45:20] and you can tell a pretty good story

[00:45:22] but then it also is useful

[00:45:23] to like meta learn

[00:45:25] what a story is

[00:45:26] so reading Joseph Campbell's

[00:45:28] The Hero's Journey

[00:45:30] oh here's this very popular theory

[00:45:32] that seems to work

[00:45:33] about what the structure

[00:45:34] of a story is

[00:45:35] like you know

[00:45:36] the hero has a call

[00:45:37] to action

[00:45:38] he rejects it

[00:45:39] he has problems

[00:45:40] he has allies

[00:45:41] he reaches a point

[00:45:42] where it seems like

[00:45:43] all hope is lost

[00:45:44] and then boom

[00:45:45] he solves it

[00:45:46] and returns to tell the tale.

[00:45:48] So it seems like

[00:45:49] there are these rules too

[00:45:52] on top of the domain

[00:45:54] which are very helpful.

[00:45:55] So like for instance

[00:45:56] with piano or jazz

[00:45:57] you could learn

[00:45:58] the instrument

[00:45:59] and the motor skills

[00:46:00] and be very good

[00:46:01] and can repeat songs

[00:46:02] that you hear in your head

[00:46:03] and you can have perfect pitch

[00:46:04] but then knowing

[00:46:05] how to turn a major chord

[00:46:07] into a minor chord

[00:46:08] like knowing these basics

[00:46:09] of music theory

[00:46:10] can then help you improvise

[00:46:11] and be creative.

[00:46:12] But you have to know this theory

[00:46:13] on top of the skills.

[00:46:15] Yeah I mean

[00:46:16] I think of the theory

[00:46:17] like in the way

[00:46:18] you're talking about it

[00:46:19] is being part of the skills

[00:46:20] that like

[00:46:21] it's you know

[00:46:22] it's not generally the case

[00:46:23] that just looking at

[00:46:24] finished products of work

[00:46:26] so like looking

[00:46:27] at a finished painting

[00:46:28] you just do that endlessly

[00:46:30] it's not going to make you

[00:46:31] a good painter

[00:46:32] because being a good painter

[00:46:33] requires the sort of

[00:46:35] problem solving steps

[00:46:36] that go into producing that.

[00:46:38] So like what was the problem

[00:46:39] they were struggling with?

[00:46:40] How did they solve that problem?

[00:46:41] And sometimes it's you know

[00:46:43] very superficial or basic

[00:46:45] like oh if you want to draw a leaf

[00:46:46] do it like this

[00:46:47] and that's you know

[00:46:48] there's not that much theory behind it.

[00:46:49] But I mean in most work

[00:46:51] most cognitive

[00:46:52] or intellectual domains

[00:46:53] the way you solve the problem

[00:46:55] is through some kind of abstraction

[00:46:56] so if you're dealing with

[00:46:58] you know okay how do I make

[00:46:59] a good painting composition

[00:47:00] well you have some ideas

[00:47:01] of color theory

[00:47:02] you have some ideas about

[00:47:03] like well I'm putting this here

[00:47:05] so I have to have something

[00:47:06] smaller here

[00:47:07] I'm doing this here

[00:47:08] so it has to be over here

[00:47:09] otherwise it's going to look unbalanced

[00:47:10] and these are kind of

[00:47:11] more abstract ideas you develop

[00:47:13] so I think music theory

[00:47:14] especially because it has

[00:47:15] such mathematical roots

[00:47:16] there's a lot of development

[00:47:18] in terms of you know

[00:47:20] ideas for like well

[00:47:21] why does this thing sound good

[00:47:22] and this thing doesn't sound good

[00:47:23] or why does this thing sound like

[00:47:25] you know gives you a certain feeling

[00:47:26] and this thing doesn't

[00:47:27] and so people have done

[00:47:29] a lot of work to try to figure out

[00:47:30] what are the moves you can make

[00:47:32] in this abstract space

[00:47:34] that ultimately boils down

[00:47:36] to a certain set of notes

[00:47:37] or a certain set of you know

[00:47:38] movements that you're making

[00:47:39] with an instrument

[00:47:41] so like with chess

[00:47:44] and in these experiments

[00:47:45] that they've done about chunking

[00:47:47] they basically say

[00:47:49] a grandmaster

[00:47:51] who's like a top chess player

[00:47:53] has about 100,000 chunks

[00:47:55] in their memory

[00:47:56] like they recognize separately

[00:47:57] 100,000 different types of chess pieces

[00:47:59] different types of chess positions

[00:48:01] and a master level player

[00:48:03] has about 10,000 chunks

[00:48:04] and of course an amateur or beginner

[00:48:06] has zero or close to zero

[00:48:08] and my problem is

[00:48:12] particularly as I'm older

[00:48:13] so I'm 56

[00:48:15] and my problem is

[00:48:16] I'll forget

[00:48:18] I'll see a chunk over and over

[00:48:20] and the coach will say

[00:48:22] in this situation you do this

[00:48:24] in this situation you do this

[00:48:25] and we'll go over this same type of chunk

[00:48:27] over and over again

[00:48:28] but then I'll forget

[00:48:29] and I'm wondering if there's something

[00:48:32] higher level

[00:48:33] so this causes players

[00:48:35] maybe in any domain

[00:48:36] to have a plateau

[00:48:37] like I can't seem to learn more

[00:48:38] because my memory is like full

[00:48:40] or at least

[00:48:41] I only remember the things I learned

[00:48:44] when I was younger

[00:48:45] and not the things I've learned recently

[00:48:47] so I'm wondering if there's something

[00:48:48] even higher

[00:48:49] like just a rules-based approach

[00:48:51] where if

[00:48:52] and I just like spell it out

[00:48:53] if this kind of configuration exists

[00:48:57] do this in general

[00:48:59] so then I don't have to remember

[00:49:00] all the chunks

[00:49:01] I just have to remember these rules

[00:49:03] I wonder like what domains

[00:49:04] would you say are rule-based?

[00:49:06] Yeah, so well

[00:49:07] I think there's a lot of stuff

[00:49:09] to potentially like pull on there

[00:49:11] and what you brought up

[00:49:12] but one of the things

[00:49:13] I would say is that

[00:49:14] you know a distinction

[00:49:15] that I didn't end up writing about it

[00:49:16] in the book

[00:49:17] but is a very important distinction

[00:49:19] from cognitive science

[00:49:20] is they separate declarative memory

[00:49:21] from procedural memory

[00:49:22] declarative memory

[00:49:23] is that all the things

[00:49:24] that you think about

[00:49:25] when you actually think about memory

[00:49:26] which is the stuff

[00:49:27] you can explicitly remember

[00:49:29] so you know names, faces

[00:49:31] memories from your childhood

[00:49:33] those are all declarative memory

[00:49:34] and then procedural memory

[00:49:35] is skill memory

[00:49:36] it is kind of what you're talking about

[00:49:38] this sort of

[00:49:39] if-then rule-based system

[00:49:41] so there is some evidence

[00:49:43] that these are like

[00:49:44] two different memory systems

[00:49:45] and they sort of work

[00:49:46] according to different rules

[00:49:47] and procedural memory

[00:49:48] tends to be something

[00:49:50] that when you acquire it

[00:49:51] it's often more durable

[00:49:53] so you know that's why

[00:49:54] they say it's like learning

[00:49:55] how to ride a bicycle

[00:49:56] and not like learning trigonometry

[00:49:57] because trigonometry

[00:49:58] is for most of us

[00:49:59] a largely declarative skill

[00:50:00] you know you remember the

[00:50:02] you know

[00:50:03] Soh Cah Toa or whatever

[00:50:05] you remember from high school

[00:50:06] but maybe you like

[00:50:07] unless you've done it

[00:50:08] so many times in your work

[00:50:09] it's not just something

[00:50:10] you do through

[00:50:11] kind of like almost muscle memory

[00:50:12] but the idea here

[00:50:14] is that often

[00:50:15] when you're learning skills

[00:50:16] they start out declarative

[00:50:17] you start out with

[00:50:18] some kind of explicit representation

[00:50:19] of it

[00:50:20] some kind of

[00:50:21] deliberate memory

[00:50:22] that you're retrieving

[00:50:23] and then it switches

[00:50:24] to more procedural skills

[00:50:25] so you develop

[00:50:26] procedures for doing it

[00:50:28] automatically in particular situations

[00:50:30] and so a lot of our intuition

[00:50:31] may be this like

[00:50:32] procedural memory taking over

[00:50:34] I have

[00:50:35] So it's just procedural memory

[00:50:37] is that like pattern recognition?

[00:50:39] Well I think pattern recognition

[00:50:40] is in declarative memory too

[00:50:41] because like the chunks

[00:50:42] would probably be

[00:50:43] in most theories

[00:50:44] they're declarative memory

[00:50:45] so it's something that like you

[00:50:46] like you see NHL

[00:50:48] and that's just

[00:50:49] a meaningful pattern to you

[00:50:50] you see NHL

[00:50:51] so it's in that explicit memory

[00:50:52] whereas the procedural memory

[00:50:53] is a little bit more like

[00:50:54] when I see NHL

[00:50:55] I'm like I don't know

[00:50:57] better with chess

[00:50:58] it's like when I see that

[00:50:59] you know the king is in this position

[00:51:00] I do this

[00:51:01] right so it's more like

[00:51:02] if then kind of pattern

[00:51:04] like this you know

[00:51:05] conditional actionable

[00:51:07] kind of pattern for things

[00:51:09] and so that's probably important

[00:51:11] for things like

[00:51:12] you know

[00:51:13] if you're solving a math problem

[00:51:14] it's like well when this is

[00:51:15] the math problem

[00:51:16] this is the form

[00:51:17] you do this

[00:51:18] and then that's stored

[00:51:19] in that kind of memory

[00:51:20] whereas like

[00:51:21] the ability to explain

[00:51:22] why you do the problem that way

[00:51:24] is in declarative memory

[00:51:26] so they kind of form different rules

[00:51:27] I think they work

[00:51:28] in slightly different ways

[00:51:30] see like I think

[00:51:31] I think my problem is

[00:51:33] like so a grandmaster

[00:51:34] will look at a chess position

[00:51:36] and say oh I see these chunks

[00:51:38] whereas I'm worried

[00:51:40] I can no longer remember

[00:51:43] do the pattern recognition

[00:51:45] as well as when I was younger

[00:51:46] so I have to explicitly say to myself

[00:51:49] oh if I have two bishops

[00:51:55] and they don't

[00:51:56] I have to blow open the position somehow

[00:51:59] whereas a grandmaster

[00:52:00] will sort of recognize

[00:52:01] okay I'm in this type of position

[00:52:03] with two bishops

[00:52:04] he might not even like verbalize it

[00:52:06] and just will know what to do

[00:52:07] whereas I'm starting to think

[00:52:09] I can't do the pattern recognition anymore

[00:52:11] and I have to kind of

[00:52:13] explicitly

[00:52:15] almost write down

[00:52:17] what the patterns are

[00:52:18] what the chunks are

[00:52:19] or what groups of chunks look like

[00:52:21] and then come up with a set of rules

[00:52:23] yeah it's interesting

[00:52:24] I think there's definitely changes

[00:52:26] to cognition

[00:52:27] with aging

[00:52:28] and with some things being maybe easier

[00:52:30] when you're younger

[00:52:31] I've heard all sorts of different theories

[00:52:33] I don't know whether there's

[00:52:34] a really strong consensus on it

[00:52:35] but I know some theories

[00:52:37] kind of make the claim that

[00:52:39] procedural learning tends to be a bit easier

[00:52:41] when you're younger

[00:52:42] at least for some sorts of skills

[00:52:44] that's an argument that's often made

[00:52:45] with language learning

[00:52:46] because kids are very good procedural learners

[00:52:48] for a lot of the linguistic skills

[00:52:51] they are able to acquire fluency

[00:52:54] maybe a little bit faster

[00:52:55] than adults who can think about the rules

[00:52:58] think about the grammar

[00:52:59] but maybe have less quick access to it

[00:53:02] but I don't really know about

[00:53:03] situations like chess

[00:53:04] I haven't really seen any

[00:53:05] age-related studies or show

[00:53:07] chess expertise based on

[00:53:08] age of acquisition

[00:53:10] and differential skills there

[00:53:14] Define procedural learning again

[00:53:18] Again, this declarative procedural distinction

[00:53:20] is widely held in all psychology

[00:53:23] declarative is all the things

[00:53:24] that you have consciously accessible

[00:53:26] so it's a memory system

[00:53:28] that's largely associative

[00:53:29] it's something that you think of one thing

[00:53:30] that reminds you of something else

[00:53:32] and it's sort of all linked together like that

[00:53:35] and it's things that you can articulate

[00:53:37] so I know the letter A

[00:53:38] or this kind of thing

[00:53:39] procedural memory

[00:53:40] there's different versions of it as well

[00:53:42] one of the major theories of procedural learning

[00:53:45] is that you're learning like if-then patterns

[00:53:47] so you're learning sort of like

[00:53:48] this is the situation

[00:53:49] then I do this action

[00:53:51] and so it's a little bit more

[00:53:53] kind of like the motor learning

[00:53:54] it's a little bit more something

[00:53:55] where you see some situation

[00:53:58] and then you take the particular action

[00:54:00] with that step

[00:54:01] and so in this sort of viewpoint

[00:54:04] the problem with declarative learning

[00:54:05] a lot of the issue is retrieval access

[00:54:07] like how do you access

[00:54:08] the memory that you need

[00:54:09] for that particular situation

[00:54:11] whereas a lot of procedural learning

[00:54:12] is again like tuning that

[00:54:13] sort of if-then condition pattern

[00:54:15] so that it's very strongly ingrained

[00:54:18] as a habit that in this particular situation

[00:54:20] you take the right action

[00:54:21] and so a lot of practicing

[00:54:22] is training this procedural learning

[00:54:24] whereas reading examples

[00:54:26] studying, seeing more things

[00:54:27] is maybe more declarative

[00:54:30] and what's the difference between

[00:54:32] let's say I want to be a great novelist

[00:54:34] so I could read a thousand novels

[00:54:36] or I could also learn

[00:54:39] this is what the hero's journey looks like

[00:54:41] so boom here's Star Wars

[00:54:43] and are those two different types of learning?

[00:54:46] Yeah, so I mean that's another distinction

[00:54:48] which would be between

[00:54:49] like implicit learning and explicit learning

[00:54:51] so implicit learning is like

[00:54:52] I see a lot of examples

[00:54:53] and then I infer or I generalize

[00:54:56] some kind of idea about the examples

[00:54:59] and then explicit learning is like

[00:55:00] I tell you exactly what the examples all mean

[00:55:02] and what they all have in common

[00:55:04] and so I think that for a lot of domains

[00:55:07] explicit learning is definitely best

[00:55:09] like it's probably better to

[00:55:10] be told exactly how to do certain things

[00:55:13] but the reason that it's hard

[00:55:15] is that often the explicit rules

[00:55:16] are kind of complicated and contradictory

[00:55:18] so learning by lots of examples

[00:55:21] and sort of inferring this kind of complex pattern

[00:55:23] I mean this is what all the

[00:55:24] large language models and neural nets

[00:55:26] and deep learning

[00:55:27] that's what they're doing right

[00:55:28] is they're inferring like a really complicated rule

[00:55:30] from just seeing a lot of examples

[00:55:32] and getting feedback on it

[00:55:33] now I think again

[00:55:35] for the particular skill

[00:55:37] and how you're learning it

[00:55:38] I think it really does depend

[00:55:39] but I mean if I were trying to know

[00:55:41] what is good writing

[00:55:42] I would probably want to know the rules

[00:55:43] but I would understand that those rules

[00:55:45] are like a really gross oversimplification

[00:55:47] of what makes good writing

[00:55:48] and so I'd want lots of examples

[00:55:49] to like complement that

[00:55:50] so I think for a creative skill

[00:55:52] I don't think there's any way around

[00:55:53] going through all the examples

[00:55:54] but I think it's still helpful

[00:55:57] for someone to be able to point out

[00:55:59] oh this is the thing that a lot of these things

[00:56:00] have in common

[00:56:01] it's called the hero's journey

[00:56:02] and then you can see that

[00:56:03] because you are armed with this concept

[00:56:05] you can see that

[00:56:06] whereas it might take you

[00:56:08] thousands of examples

[00:56:09] before you would like

[00:56:10] just figure that out on your own

[00:56:12] and be able to apply it to your work

[00:56:14] Right, so it's like learning

[00:56:15] versus meta-learning

[00:56:16] so I'm going to either

[00:56:18] so I could learn the traditional way

[00:56:20] which is the 10,000 hours

[00:56:21] and I'm going to read a thousand books

[00:56:23] I'm going to write a thousand books

[00:56:24] I'm going to get some feedback on them

[00:56:26] and I'm going to be

[00:56:28] at the end of that

[00:56:29] I'm going to be a pretty good writer

[00:56:31] or, and or

[00:56:33] I'm also going to read about

[00:56:35] great writers

[00:56:37] and how they describe

[00:56:38] how they write

[00:56:39] and so here's Joseph Campbell

[00:56:41] with The Hero's Story

[00:56:42] here's maybe Kurt Vonnegut

[00:56:45] and he's got some books on writing

[00:56:46] here's Ray Bradbury

[00:56:47] he's got his books on writing

[00:56:48] and Stephen King has a book on writing

[00:56:50] I'm going to read those

[00:56:51] and kind of meta-learn

[00:56:52] what writers say about writing

[00:56:54] Yeah, I mean I think

[00:56:56] if I were starting out on a skill

[00:56:57] I would start with the explicit instructions

[00:56:59] for most of them

[00:57:00] because it's going to be much faster

[00:57:01] than going through countless examples

[00:57:04] but I think you'd also recognize

[00:57:06] that there's going to be

[00:57:07] probably a limitation of that

[00:57:09] you can probably get from like zero

[00:57:11] to like a decent beginner

[00:57:12] or novice level

[00:57:13] for a lot of creative skills

[00:57:14] just by following

[00:57:15] you know, explicit advice

[00:57:17] you just read a style guide

[00:57:18] like don't do these things

[00:57:19] and then you don't do it

[00:57:20] but then you get a little further

[00:57:21] and you realize

[00:57:22] oh actually, you know

[00:57:23] adverbs aren't always the devil

[00:57:24] or something like that

[00:57:25] and then you start mixing it up

[00:57:26] and you're like

[00:57:27] okay, I like what this person is doing

[00:57:29] and why does it work

[00:57:30] and you're going through it

[00:57:31] and you're building that library of patterns

[00:57:33] so I think, you know

[00:57:35] the chess player

[00:57:36] understanding rules of chess

[00:57:38] like you know

[00:57:39] you want to maintain control of the center

[00:57:41] and you don't want to be like

[00:57:43] the first pieces you send out

[00:57:46] aren't usually the rooks

[00:57:47] and like these kinds of rules of thumb

[00:57:49] and heuristics

[00:57:50] that you learn explicitly

[00:57:51] are very important

[00:57:52] but they're also probably not going to get you

[00:57:55] to grandmaster level

[00:57:57] just because

[00:57:58] by the time you're at the grandmaster level

[00:58:00] the actual rules that you're playing with

[00:58:02] you were making explicit

[00:58:03] would be so complicated

[00:58:04] that you know

[00:58:05] I think the intuition approach

[00:58:07] Yeah, or there'd just be like

[00:58:09] this huge set of

[00:58:10] you know

[00:58:11] if then

[00:58:12] or do this in this situation

[00:58:13] or that in that situation

[00:58:14] so it's going to be too complicated

[00:58:15] but I mean as a starting point

[00:58:17] you definitely

[00:58:18] if there's any low-hanging fruit

[00:58:19] of like this helps in this situation

[00:58:21] definitely go for it, right?

[00:58:22] You know, a great story is

[00:58:24] you have the story of Octavia Butler

[00:58:26] who's a science fiction writer

[00:58:28] great writer

[00:58:30] I once went to hear her speak

[00:58:32] and just really smart about the art of writing

[00:58:35] but I was struck in your story about her

[00:58:38] how hard it was for her at first

[00:58:40] the writing

[00:58:41] and how did she get better?

[00:58:43] I mean, yeah

[00:58:44] Octavia Butler was someone who

[00:58:46] there's like a few people you do in the research

[00:58:48] where like you really resonate with them

[00:58:49] and despite her life story being

[00:58:51] so different from mine

[00:58:53] I just had so much deep empathy

[00:58:55] for her journey

[00:58:56] because basically she was someone

[00:58:57] who from a little girl

[00:58:58] wanted to be a science fiction writer

[00:59:00] and just like her entire environment

[00:59:02] is like not conducive

[00:59:05] for that goal happening

[00:59:06] but she does it anyways

[00:59:08] and just like grinds it out

[00:59:09] and sticks to it

[00:59:10] and so the thing that I kind of got from that

[00:59:12] is that especially in something like

[00:59:14] science fiction writing

[00:59:15] where it's not merely about

[00:59:17] mastering the craft of writing

[00:59:18] but also understanding the kind of

[00:59:20] the ecosystem in which the writer works

[00:59:22] and publishes

[00:59:23] and all these sort of details

[00:59:24] is that having access to a community

[00:59:26] having access to these influences

[00:59:28] that can kind of get you up to best practices

[00:59:31] get you close to that ballpark

[00:59:32] like kind of all the little like

[00:59:34] rules of thumb

[00:59:35] all the things that we were talking about

[00:59:36] like you get those

[00:59:37] that is going to

[00:59:39] you know, get you so much closer

[00:59:41] than just trying to figure them out on your own

[00:59:43] and so, you know, she spends like

[00:59:45] years and years just in frustration

[00:59:47] because she's cut off from that

[00:59:48] or she's not realizing that that's what she needs

[00:59:51] and it's, you know, making it very difficult for her

[00:59:54] to make a living writing

[00:59:57] And then eventually though

[00:59:58] what do you think was the tipping point for her?

[01:00:01] Yeah, well the tipping point was definitely

[01:00:03] her going to the Clarion

[01:00:04] science fiction writers' workshop

[01:00:06] so she had done a few workshops

[01:00:08] in LA

[01:00:09] where she was

[01:00:11] exposed to some people

[01:00:12] who were science fiction writers

[01:00:13] and one of them

[01:00:14] I think it was Harlan Ellison

[01:00:15] he tells her like

[01:00:17] you should go to Pennsylvania

[01:00:19] and go to this Clarion science fiction writing workshop

[01:00:22] and she's like, you know

[01:00:23] not sure about this

[01:00:24] she like barely ever left her home

[01:00:25] but she gets on a Greyhound bus

[01:00:26] she goes there

[01:00:27] and she spends a while

[01:00:30] in this environment

[01:00:31] where she's in a big classroom

[01:00:32] with a bunch of people

[01:00:33] who are also writing science fiction

[01:00:34] and they're like

[01:00:35] okay, do a new short story for tomorrow

[01:00:37] and then, you know

[01:00:38] she's forced to write

[01:00:39] in this like pace

[01:00:40] that she's not used to

[01:00:41] and then she shows there

[01:00:42] and then everyone sort of

[01:00:43] discusses the work

[01:00:44] and dissects it

[01:00:45] and I think

[01:00:46] this workshop environment

[01:00:47] I think is very good for writers

[01:00:49] especially in like difficult fields

[01:00:51] literary fields

[01:00:52] because even if

[01:00:53] even if you just extract

[01:00:54] the role of the teacher

[01:00:55] which is obviously very important

[01:00:56] they had like, you know

[01:00:57] professional science fiction writers

[01:00:59] who were running these classes

[01:01:00] just being in an environment

[01:01:02] where you're with a lot of people

[01:01:03] who do know some things

[01:01:04] but maybe not everything

[01:01:05] quickly allows you to kind of

[01:01:07] acquire that knowledge about

[01:01:08] you know, this is how

[01:01:09] I'm going to market my writing

[01:01:11] this is how I'm going to improve my writing

[01:01:12] this is what, you know

[01:01:13] isn't working about my writing

[01:01:15] and so, you know

[01:01:16] the interesting thing is

[01:01:17] this kind of process

[01:01:18] of seeing what other people are doing

[01:01:19] and getting feedback

[01:01:20] even though you would think

[01:01:21] that would like

[01:01:22] you know, that imitative process

[01:01:24] is going to pull you away

[01:01:26] from your original vision

[01:01:27] it's actually, that's when

[01:01:28] her creativity really

[01:01:29] leapt off the page

[01:01:31] her early work was very derivative

[01:01:32] because she doesn't know

[01:01:33] what she's doing

[01:01:34] so she's very much like copying

[01:01:35] kind of the bad stylistic side effects

[01:01:37] of like pulp science fiction writers

[01:01:39] rather than expressing herself

[01:01:41] the way she needs to

[01:01:43] It's very interesting

[01:01:44] like this concept of

[01:01:46] particularly with like writing

[01:01:47] developing your own voice

[01:01:49] and, but I think copying

[01:01:51] those earlier styles

[01:01:52] and like she even refers to it

[01:01:53] if somebody has trouble

[01:01:54] with beginning novels

[01:01:56] she tells her students

[01:01:58] just take your favorite novels

[01:02:00] and just write out

[01:02:01] the beginnings of those novels

[01:02:03] just so you see

[01:02:04] what a great beginning is like

[01:02:06] and you, it's like

[01:02:08] you almost build the muscle memory

[01:02:10] because she says

[01:02:11] write them out yourself

[01:02:12] word for word

[01:02:13] you build the muscle memory

[01:02:14] almost of what

[01:02:15] a good beginning is like

[01:02:17] and I like that approach

[01:02:19] I think also in that workshop

[01:02:20] what was really good for her

[01:02:22] was the forced deadlines

[01:02:23] write a story by tomorrow

[01:02:24] so she can't do it at her pace

[01:02:26] it builds an understanding that

[01:02:28] whether you have writer's block or not

[01:02:30] whether you're motivated or not

[01:02:31] you have to produce a story

[01:02:33] by tomorrow

[01:02:34] so like you're forced to

[01:02:36] build these raw skills

[01:02:38] that normally you might have had

[01:02:40] the bad habit of waiting

[01:02:41] for inspiration

[01:02:42] before you would

[01:02:43] you know, use that skill

[01:02:45] now you have to use that skill

[01:02:46] whether you have inspiration or not

[01:02:48] I mean, I think you can see this

[01:02:49] across many different

[01:02:51] like professional streams of work

[01:02:52] that like the people who enter an elite

[01:02:54] often go through this kind of

[01:02:56] almost like pressure cooker

[01:02:57] training environment

[01:02:58] and sometimes that's just a like

[01:03:00] a kind of almost

[01:03:01] occupational hazing

[01:03:03] to like prevent people

[01:03:04] from entering the field

[01:03:05] but it does have a little bit

[01:03:06] of a cognitive science rationale

[01:03:08] in that when you're in this

[01:03:09] kind of intensive environment

[01:03:11] where you're getting a lot of practice

[01:03:13] a lot of quick feedback

[01:03:14] and you're often

[01:03:15] you know, working on varied cases

[01:03:18] you're working on varied situations

[01:03:20] you can compress what would have been

[01:03:22] a much longer period of training

[01:03:25] if you were doing it sort of

[01:03:27] outside that environment

[01:03:28] so I mean the amount of people who

[01:03:30] are like successful non-fiction authors

[01:03:32] that had a career in journalism

[01:03:34] is just because, you know, writing

[01:03:37] you know, magazine pieces

[01:03:39] or things for these publications

[01:03:41] like it has really high editorial standards

[01:03:44] there's really high sense of like rigor

[01:03:46] for like quoting sources

[01:03:47] and getting your facts right

[01:03:48] and so you're basically going to be working

[01:03:50] under this environment

[01:03:51] that's going to force you

[01:03:52] to a fairly high level of skill

[01:03:53] you know, and the downside is

[01:03:55] that there's a lot of pressure

[01:03:56] working in those environments

[01:03:57] and they can often be difficult to access

[01:03:59] but I think if you understand

[01:04:00] why they work that way

[01:04:01] you know, I think for Octavia Butler

[01:04:03] going to that workshop

[01:04:04] was really what turned her career around

[01:04:07] Why do you think many successful actors

[01:04:10] so some successful actors

[01:04:12] took acting classes

[01:04:13] studied acting and so on

[01:04:15] but many, many, many actors

[01:04:18] that are famous

[01:04:19] that we know about

[01:04:20] that we see on shows every day

[01:04:21] really were started with improv

[01:04:23] and never took an acting class

[01:04:25] but took improv classes

[01:04:26] so like why do you think that's the case?

[01:04:29] That's interesting

[01:04:30] I don't know

[01:04:31] I think, I don't think I know enough

[01:04:33] about acting in theater

[01:04:34] to associate with any

[01:04:35] like strong level of certainty

[01:04:37] but I do think that

[01:04:38] for a lot of skills

[01:04:40] that are kind of like

[01:04:41] the communication skills adjacent

[01:04:45] a lot of what the skill is

[01:04:47] is a kind of emotional self-regulation

[01:04:49] and so I think like

[01:04:50] in an improv context

[01:04:52] where you are kind of

[01:04:53] thrown into situations

[01:04:54] that you need to adapt to emotionally

[01:04:57] like, okay, I need to be frightened

[01:04:59] I need to do this now

[01:05:01] that trains a certain kind of ability there

[01:05:03] that maybe you don't normally encounter

[01:05:05] and don't normally get training in

[01:05:06] in your everyday life

[01:05:08] but it's not so much a method

[01:05:11] it's not so much like

[01:05:12] well, this is the right way to act

[01:05:14] and then you're following

[01:05:15] like some eight-step sequence

[01:05:16] it's more just

[01:05:17] you have enough emotional self-regulation

[01:05:19] so that when you know

[01:05:21] you need to act a certain way

[01:05:23] you can just turn it on

[01:05:24] or you can just manage yourself

[01:05:26] whereas most people

[01:05:27] in most situations

[01:05:28] are not forced to do that level

[01:05:30] of emotional self-regulation

[01:05:32] you know, I'm having this interview now

[01:05:33] all I have to do is like

[01:05:34] be pleasant

[01:05:35] and you know, I'm not going to have to

[01:05:36] like cry at one part

[01:05:37] and be really excited at another

[01:05:38] like I don't have that ability

[01:05:39] and I don't need to use it

[01:05:40] You can cry if you want

[01:05:41] Alright, alright, alright, yeah

[01:05:44] Like, but you know

[01:05:45] maybe improv though

[01:05:46] you get the quantity

[01:05:47] because like let's say

[01:05:48] I'm studying acting

[01:05:49] it's like, okay

[01:05:50] here's a monologue

[01:05:51] memorize it

[01:05:52] come back

[01:05:53] and we're all gonna do it

[01:05:55] but in improv

[01:05:56] so that's an acting class

[01:05:57] improv class

[01:05:59] doesn't have the memory part

[01:06:00] you're given a scene

[01:06:02] and now you have to just start off

[01:06:04] being the character in that scene

[01:06:06] so you have to quickly go

[01:06:07] from character to character

[01:06:09] very quickly

[01:06:10] as opposed to just studying

[01:06:11] one type of character per class

[01:06:13] in improv class

[01:06:14] you're probably doing many characters

[01:06:16] Yeah, that's interesting

[01:06:17] And you're also isolating

[01:06:18] the character part

[01:06:19] and not the memory part

[01:06:20] there's no memorization

[01:06:22] Oh, I think you hit the nail on the head there

[01:06:23] that like for a lot of skills

[01:06:25] that have, you know

[01:06:26] several components

[01:06:28] one of the things that like

[01:06:29] slows you down

[01:06:30] is if like one of those

[01:06:31] four or five components

[01:06:33] is the bottleneck

[01:06:35] but you spend

[01:06:36] you have to do all other four

[01:06:37] every single time you do it

[01:06:39] it's gonna slow down

[01:06:40] the amount of reps you can do

[01:06:41] it's gonna slow down

[01:06:42] how you're gonna work on it

[01:06:43] so, you know

[01:06:44] like I think about like painting

[01:06:45] or something

[01:06:46] painting usually do a drawing

[01:06:47] first thing you do a painting

[01:06:48] and if you're doing

[01:06:49] something like, you know

[01:06:50] a portrait or something

[01:06:51] the drawing might take you

[01:06:52] a huge amount of time

[01:06:53] so if what you're trying to get better at

[01:06:54] is like mixing the right colors

[01:06:55] or doing this kind of thing

[01:06:56] you know, spending 80 hours

[01:06:57] on the drawing

[01:06:58] that's actually like

[01:06:59] not helping you

[01:07:00] on that other skill

[01:07:01] but it's gonna slow you down

[01:07:02] so I do think

[01:07:03] you know, in that context

[01:07:04] that kind of thinking of improv

[01:07:05] is like a drill

[01:07:06] for like the emotional self-regulation

[01:07:08] or being able to like

[01:07:09] quickly change states

[01:07:10] or characters

[01:07:11] or voices

[01:07:12] and not having to worry about

[01:07:13] like having memorized the speech

[01:07:14] yeah, that might be an advantage

[01:07:17] Why do you think

[01:07:19] for some skills

[01:07:20] it's better to be younger

[01:07:21] for some skills

[01:07:22] it's better to be older

[01:07:23] so, I was talking to

[01:07:24] Arthur Brooks about this

[01:07:25] who writes a lot about

[01:07:26] he wrote a book

[01:07:27] from strength to strength

[01:07:28] about skills we have

[01:07:29] when we're young

[01:07:30] like mathematicians and physicists

[01:07:31] peak at 25

[01:07:33] historians

[01:07:34] peak at the age of 69

[01:07:36] so, why do you think

[01:07:37] some skills are easier

[01:07:38] when you're older

[01:07:40] like being a historian

[01:07:42] Well, I think the physics historian

[01:07:44] contrast is pretty easily explicable

[01:07:46] in terms of

[01:07:47] for physics

[01:07:49] you need to have

[01:07:50] like a high working memory capacity

[01:07:52] you need to be able to like

[01:07:53] juggle a lot of ideas

[01:07:54] in your head

[01:07:55] at once

[01:07:56] and that probably

[01:07:57] that fluid intelligence

[01:07:58] probably degrades faster

[01:07:59] so, it's something you probably

[01:08:00] peak at

[01:08:01] maybe in your early 20s

[01:08:02] so, you need to count

[01:08:03] the PhD training

[01:08:04] this kind of thing

[01:08:05] you know, you're probably

[01:08:06] at that kind of like

[01:08:07] sweet spot of

[01:08:08] you've acquired the knowledge

[01:08:09] of your discipline

[01:08:10] and you also have

[01:08:12] you know, the sort of

[01:08:13] raw horsepower in your brain

[01:08:14] at that young age

[01:08:15] that you can make

[01:08:16] this novel contribution

[01:08:18] whereas historians

[01:08:19] I don't think

[01:08:20] that's the major bottleneck

[01:08:21] the major bottleneck

[01:08:22] is just knowing a lot of history

[01:08:23] and so, when you're

[01:08:24] in your late 60s

[01:08:25] or something

[01:08:26] you've just maybe

[01:08:27] you know, if you've been

[01:08:28] a historian the whole time

[01:08:29] you've just read a lot more books

[01:08:30] and so, you can just easily

[01:08:31] cite off a lot more

[01:08:32] scholarly things than that

[01:08:33] whereas when you're 30

[01:08:34] you just haven't had enough

[01:08:35] lifetime experience

[01:08:36] to be able to do that

[01:08:37] so, I do think

[01:08:38] that's probably a transition

[01:08:39] that you maybe want to do

[01:08:40] in your life

[01:08:41] is that like

[01:08:42] you know, focus on

[01:08:43] those sort of

[01:08:44] high intellect requiring

[01:08:46] you know

[01:08:47] solving like

[01:08:48] completely original problems

[01:08:49] creative kind of domains

[01:08:51] when you're younger

[01:08:52] and then as you're older

[01:08:53] like work toward

[01:08:54] things that build off

[01:08:55] of experience

[01:08:56] build off of having

[01:08:57] a larger knowledge base

[01:08:58] I think that's probably

[01:08:59] a transition that

[01:09:01] you know, if you were

[01:09:02] thinking of yourself

[01:09:03] as like a cognitive investor

[01:09:04] that's where I would invest

[01:09:05] my money

[01:09:06] in the beginning

[01:09:07] and those growth stocks

[01:09:08] of like

[01:09:09] you know, physics

[01:09:10] and math and stuff

[01:09:11] and then later on

[01:09:12] I would be focusing

[01:09:13] on like the long tail of

[01:09:14] well, I've read

[01:09:15] 100 books on this

[01:09:16] so, I know my stuff

[01:09:17] What if I'm 80 years old

[01:09:18] and I really want to

[01:09:19] be a mathematician

[01:09:20] and I just

[01:09:21] haven't studied math at all

[01:09:22] I mean, I don't think

[01:09:23] the decline is as precipitous

[01:09:24] as sometimes people

[01:09:25] make it out to be

[01:09:26] like I sometimes have

[01:09:27] conversations with people

[01:09:28] who's like, I'm 60

[01:09:29] can I still learn?

[01:09:30] And I remember doing

[01:09:32] sort of a research

[01:09:33] deep dive into

[01:09:34] like aging and learning

[01:09:35] and the trend line

[01:09:37] for a lot of cognitive abilities

[01:09:39] I mean, there is decline

[01:09:40] but it's pretty flat

[01:09:41] for most people

[01:09:42] until later in life

[01:09:44] and then

[01:09:45] there's more variability

[01:09:47] and I think it's just

[01:09:48] related to the fact

[01:09:49] that some people

[01:09:50] get Alzheimer's

[01:09:51] or become senile

[01:09:52] and some people don't

[01:09:53] so, you know

[01:09:54] if you're in that

[01:09:55] you didn't happen to you category

[01:09:56] you know, maybe you're not

[01:09:57] quite as sharp as you were

[01:09:58] when you're 21

[01:09:59] but it's not like

[01:10:00] you know, you're just

[01:10:01] a completely different person

[01:10:02] when you're older

[01:10:03] so I think you probably

[01:10:04] can learn those things

[01:10:05] it would probably just

[01:10:06] take you a little bit longer

[01:10:07] than it would have

[01:10:08] when you were 20

[01:10:09] I think maybe the

[01:10:10] bigger obstacle we have

[01:10:11] at that point is that

[01:10:12] you know, when you're young

[01:10:13] you're constantly

[01:10:14] learning new things

[01:10:15] you constantly have this mindset

[01:10:16] of like, I'm going to

[01:10:17] invest in this skill

[01:10:18] it's going to pay dividends

[01:10:19] for the rest of my life

[01:10:20] and so when you're older

[01:10:21] especially if you've spent

[01:10:22] a whole career

[01:10:23] where you were just

[01:10:24] focusing on the thing

[01:10:25] that you were already good at

[01:10:26] focusing on the profession

[01:10:27] that you'd already mastered

[01:10:28] I think it just can be

[01:10:29] kind of humbling

[01:10:30] to go back to like

[01:10:31] that, you know

[01:10:32] mindset of being a student

[01:10:33] and I think that kind of

[01:10:34] that emotional difference

[01:10:36] is often bigger than

[01:10:37] any like cognitive difficulty

[01:10:39] Yeah, and also

[01:10:40] when you're younger

[01:10:41] you can focus

[01:10:42] you could spend much more time

[01:10:43] doing something

[01:10:44] you could say to yourself

[01:10:45] okay, if this takes me

[01:10:46] a couple years

[01:10:47] that's fine

[01:10:48] when you're older

[01:10:49] you're not necessarily

[01:10:50] going to spend eight years

[01:10:51] learning how to be

[01:10:52] a good writer

[01:10:53] whereas I probably did

[01:10:54] spend eight years

[01:10:55] learning how to be

[01:10:56] a good writer

[01:10:57] like before I got

[01:10:58] anything published

[01:10:59] I wrote 3,000 words a day

[01:11:00] every day

[01:11:01] Wow

[01:11:02] for at least

[01:11:03] eight years

[01:11:04] before my first thing

[01:11:05] ever was published

[01:11:06] and then I'd go to the library

[01:11:08] and whatever I was reading

[01:11:09] I would also read

[01:11:10] the literary criticism

[01:11:11] of what I was reading

[01:11:12] and just to learn

[01:11:14] like okay, why was

[01:11:16] this book by Hemingway

[01:11:17] considered good?

[01:11:18] Is it because of

[01:11:19] what I'm thinking

[01:11:20] or what did these

[01:11:21] other critics think?

[01:11:22] And on and on

[01:11:23] but I could afford

[01:11:24] to do that then

[01:11:25] now I wouldn't be able

[01:11:26] to afford to do that

[01:11:27] so there's that too

[01:11:29] Yeah, I mean

[01:11:30] I think you're right

[01:11:31] like I'm thinking about

[01:11:32] a lot of people

[01:11:33] talk about language learning

[01:11:34] one of the things

[01:11:35] that I thought was

[01:11:36] really interesting

[01:11:37] from the research

[01:11:38] on language learning

[01:11:39] is that people generally

[01:11:40] have this impression

[01:11:41] like kids are the fastest

[01:11:42] learners of languages

[01:11:43] and there do seem to be

[01:11:44] some truth to that

[01:11:45] like if you look at

[01:11:46] what is the eventual

[01:11:47] level of attainment

[01:11:48] if you immigrate

[01:11:49] to a country

[01:11:50] when you're like four

[01:11:51] you're probably going

[01:11:52] to reach a near native

[01:11:53] level of the local language

[01:11:55] but if you immigrate

[01:11:56] when you're 40

[01:11:57] you probably won't

[01:11:58] you'll probably have

[01:11:59] a noticeable accent

[01:12:00] you'll make mistakes

[01:12:01] even after you've been there

[01:12:02] for the same amount

[01:12:03] of time as the four year old

[01:12:04] but when you do like

[01:12:05] studies that are sort of

[01:12:06] like looking at

[01:12:07] okay, you were taking

[01:12:08] kids, we're taking

[01:12:09] teenagers, we're taking

[01:12:10] adults and we're putting

[01:12:11] them through a language class

[01:12:12] the kids don't usually

[01:12:13] come out on top

[01:12:14] actually the adolescents

[01:12:15] and adults usually learn

[01:12:16] in this sort of

[01:12:17] restricted range

[01:12:18] they learn faster

[01:12:19] which makes sense

[01:12:20] when you think about

[01:12:21] like a four year old's

[01:12:22] brain isn't fully developed

[01:12:23] they can't sit in class

[01:12:24] and pay attention

[01:12:25] the adult can like study

[01:12:26] and use flashcards

[01:12:27] and do all those

[01:12:28] sorts of things

[01:12:29] and so I think sometimes

[01:12:30] we get mixed up

[01:12:31] when we're thinking

[01:12:32] about like well how

[01:12:33] was it so easy for me

[01:12:34] to learn X when I was

[01:12:35] a kid and you neglect

[01:12:36] that well you didn't

[01:12:37] have any other

[01:12:38] responsibilities or

[01:12:39] pressures on your time

[01:12:40] and you just spent

[01:12:41] like 10 times as much

[01:12:42] time doing it

[01:12:43] so that's why you got

[01:12:44] so good at it

[01:12:45] whereas now you're

[01:12:46] finding it hard to

[01:12:47] like justify a couple

[01:12:48] hours a week doing X

[01:12:49] and so you're wondering

[01:12:50] why the returns are lower

[01:12:51] so sometimes you can

[01:12:52] just explain things that way

[01:12:53] you know no matter what

[01:12:55] it's always interesting

[01:12:57] studying the learning process

[01:12:59] and how to learn faster

[01:13:00] and so on because

[01:13:01] as almost everybody knows

[01:13:04] that learning curve

[01:13:05] particularly when it's

[01:13:06] moving when you're

[01:13:07] learning something you're

[01:13:08] excited about and you're

[01:13:09] learning really fast

[01:13:10] it just feels good

[01:13:11] it gets you into that

[01:13:12] flow state

[01:13:13] it's kind of like

[01:13:14] a component of

[01:13:15] well-being and happiness

[01:13:18] and your book really

[01:13:20] again it's these

[01:13:21] you know the book is

[01:13:22] Get Better At Anything

[01:13:23] 12 Maxims for Mastery

[01:13:26] really understanding

[01:13:27] these maxims

[01:13:28] and the stories you tell

[01:13:29] ranging from Tetris

[01:13:31] to flying an airplane

[01:13:33] to everything in between

[01:13:34] it's really important

[01:13:36] to learn how to learn

[01:13:37] and I think these books

[01:13:39] you write are great

[01:13:40] I really enjoyed this one

[01:13:41] a lot of great storytelling

[01:13:43] in it so Get Better

[01:13:44] At Anything by Scott H. Young

[01:13:47] why do you have the H?

[01:13:48] Are there too many

[01:13:49] Scott Youngs out there?

[01:13:50] Well yeah there actually are

[01:13:51] Neil Young's dad was called

[01:13:53] Scott Young he's a sports

[01:13:54] journalist and for a while

[01:13:55] the ghost of his biography

[01:13:57] was haunting my thing

[01:13:58] he would occasionally be like

[01:13:59] Scott Young is a deceased

[01:14:00] sports writer on the thing

[01:14:02] so yeah Scott H. Young

[01:14:03] is for that reason

[01:14:04] also my website is

[01:14:05] scotthyoung.com

[01:14:06] because 20 years ago

[01:14:07] when I was buying the domain

[01:14:08] they didn't have scotthyoung.com

[01:14:10] they had scotthyoung.com

[01:14:11] and the rest is history.

[01:14:14] Well excellent Scott

[01:14:15] thanks again

[01:14:16] I think this is your third time

[01:14:17] on the podcast

[01:14:18] thanks once again for joining us

[01:14:19] it's one of my favorite topics

[01:14:21] in the world

[01:14:22] so come on back anytime

[01:14:24] you've got something to talk about

[01:14:26] with learning

[01:14:27] or for whatever reason

[01:14:29] you want to come back

[01:14:30] so thanks again Scott

[01:14:31] I really appreciate it

[01:14:32] Thank you so much for having me

[01:14:33] it was great chatting with you