In Honor & Memory... We Hear an NYC Air Traffic Controller’s 9/11 Story: How Chris Tucker Saved Lives

[00:00:07] Wow, it is 911 again. It kind of creeps up quietly because we don't really think of it It's so long ago now like 22 years We don't think of it as having as much impact but of course there's a lot of posts and I don't want to add to the

[00:00:22] Normal social media stuff, but this is a unique take we have on it right here I spoke with the guy who was The air traffic controller who was basically in charge of New York's airspace for The jets that were coming for the World Trade Center

[00:00:41] He had to make sure like there was one store. Well, you you'll hear his story, but it's like Incredible there was one plane that was in it was a civilian airliner That was in the way of one of the jets and there was issues there

[00:00:56] And also there was a lot of debate that they were they gonna shoot down these jets like and it was also interesting The military response and you'll see how Chris Tucker who's the air traffic controller. You'll see how

[00:01:09] He communicated with the military you he they basically had to inform the military that there was this hostage situation happening and It was really incredible to get that viewpoint and I'll just quickly mention my own story I was on the first floor of the World Trade Center

[00:01:25] There was a dean in Deluga which was like kind of where I would have breakfast every day I was day trading back then this was obviously 2001 my business partner Dan Kelly

[00:01:34] You might remember him from the Wall Street insane series. We did Dan Oman and I I did a whole series about Basically all the truly screwed up and messed up stories and things

[00:01:46] We had seen when trading and running a hedge fund and all the Wall Street stuff and it was insane but this was when I had first started day trading and Dan and I would go out to breakfast every morning and discuss what our strategies would be

[00:02:00] You we usually went to the first floor of the World Trade Center and we were walking back After eating at the World Trade Center. We were walking back and Dan turned to me and said is the president in town today?

[00:02:12] And I'm like no why or I don't know and he said well that plane looks pretty low And it was like basically just about five or six hundred feet higher than us I went whoosh right over us and then

[00:02:23] Everybody on the street sort of ducked like instinctively as we saw you could even see like the American Airlines logo That's how low the plane was and then it went boom We saw the huge boom right into the World Trade Center and at first

[00:02:35] I mean there's no there's no real video of this but at first you could sort of see part of the plane sticking out of the World Trade Center as it kind of melted into the building and

[00:02:45] I was in complete denial Dan instantly said we're being attacked and like no no no It's okay. It's too early for anybody to be like I was in this weird sort of denial Like I said it was too early

[00:02:56] The plane was remote controlled and there was no one in the World Trade Center this early Even though it was like almost 9 a.m. But Dan instantly knew what was happening I didn't believe even after the second explode plane hit. We didn't see that plane

[00:03:09] We just saw the explosion because it came in from the other side Dan was like see I already started screaming and every day I like see we're we're being intact And I'm like no no that was just an explosion from the other one

[00:03:19] It kind of rippled through to the next building and he's like no no And I didn't really believe it until the Pentagon then got got hit but of course What you know, I lived about three or four blocks from the World Trade Center

[00:03:34] So we were instantly ran upstairs and all sorts of things happened I won't go into my story too much other than to say that Grateful that you know nothing physical happened to me or my family

[00:03:48] And of course it was said to watch the events unfold in real time and actually there and see the people You know throwing themselves in the building and and then the black smoke that surrounded the whole area including where we were and

[00:04:02] In any case much more interesting is Chris Tucker's fascinating story about what it was like to be the air traffic controller that had to handle the entire mess He basically retired after that, but again, I will let him tell his story here. He is Chris Tucker

[00:04:20] This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average host this is the James Altiger show Ready. Okay. I'm gonna start out. I am so excited to have this next guest

[00:04:43] And I know I always say I'm so excited, but this one is like almost personal for me First off, I'll just describe him. So Chris Tucker welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me James

[00:04:54] Okay, well reason Chris is on as I heard him speak a few weeks ago at an event and it was riveting There was not a sound in the room Basically, I'm gonna I'm gonna over describe what you did and you could correct me when you talk, but

[00:05:08] Just to make it simple Basically Chris was the air traffic controller on duty in New York City on 9 11 one of many One of many one of many I shouldn't have said the that's why I said you would either twice that I was gonna over to describe

[00:05:23] one of many but you were Trying to deal with very specific situations involving two of the planes coming out of Boston and you had to deal with extremely complicated ethical issues that Someone shouldn't really have to come across in a lifetime not to mention

[00:05:41] being an eyewitness at the very beginnings of one of the darkest tragedies in American history and You know my own I just want to mention My own personal experience was that morning 9 11. I was a day trader at that time my own personal experience that morning was

[00:06:00] first one of euphoria because the stock market had been going down for several days in a row and I was loading up every day and Finally it looked like the market was gonna open up huge

[00:06:12] The weather as I'm sure you've heard a million times over it was probably one of the most beautiful weather days in New York City history Absolutely, I had I was living just two or three blocks away from the World Trade Center

[00:06:24] My business partner and I had just had breakfast at the Dean and DeLuca at the bottom of the World Trade Center we were walking up Church Street and

[00:06:32] He points up at the sky and he's like is the it's the president coming into town because it looked like this huge Jet was just right over us, which it was it's what you thought maybe it was Air Force one some special thing

[00:06:45] And then within seconds this jet whizzed Right over our heads everybody in the street ducked even though was 600 feet higher Right still so loud and so fast. You've never seen anything like that never and We literally watched you know everybody saw it later on TV

[00:07:02] But we watched the plane go right into the building and it was weird because for a few seconds at least the building looked kind of jagged and Like kind of the tail was you could almost see part of the tail

[00:07:17] And it was just I don't know if it was melting or about to go on fire It just it you didn't that image I never saw on TV the image of the seconds right afterwards and And then later of course we saw we didn't see the second plane

[00:07:29] But we saw the explosions from from our site We were on the other side of this the street of you were on the side that the first plane came in on and You know never occurred to me until later that

[00:07:41] You know and and I and I never really write about this talk about anything because a lot of people Thousand and thousand people had a much worse day than me But just in isolation never occurred to me until later that not that many people have watched a plane

[00:07:56] Like a big jet plane crash let alone 9-11 so right you know because I was trying to figure I did and it's almost cliche to say this but I had many nightmares until about 2005 2006 and it was almost like a classic case like first it was

[00:08:12] Once every other day and once every week then once every month then finally like Once 2005 maybe twice then one one more and that was it and it would be either like a plane or like a tidal wave

[00:08:25] just engulfing all of New York because there was the whole black cloud thing afterwards too, but That's my story Your story is is so so intense. I would just love

[00:08:39] Well actually before I asked you about 9-11 sure why'd you become an air traffic controller? It's a great question So as we were just talking I told you I went to the University of Oklahoma

[00:08:48] I grew up on Long Island. I'm sorry. I was born in Long Island. I grew up in Just about 40 miles north of New York City in what is now Cortland Manor? Okay, and when I was 12 my dad worked for American Airlines

[00:09:00] So they moved us to Tulsa, Oklahoma, so I lived in Oklahoma for 12 years went to high school there Is that their hub? No, but that's where they moved Certain portions of their headquarters from New York. He was with the human resources

[00:09:14] So that's where they put him did he just hate that he had to move from New York City to Tulsa, Oklahoma absolutely in the beginning but It turned out to be a lovely place, you know New York is as New York is very New York centric

[00:09:26] You know this is a very very much the center of the universe for a lot of people and if you live in New York Nothing else really counts, you know in Oklahoma flyover country in the middle of the country

[00:09:37] Sounds like a pastor's and that's it, but that's not the case I love my time in Oklahoma, and I met some really tremendous people out there. I keep wondering like if I Like sometimes you're right New York City is too stressful to live in like I I

[00:09:54] Love living in New York City, but I don't like that aspect. There's this this There's many cons to living in New York City. There's many cons living in New York City And I always wonder if I lived in

[00:10:06] Oklahoma a place like Oklahoma for some reason Kansas is always the state that comes to mind But if I live in a place like Oklahoma, I wonder if just oh this is just great. I'm gonna read every day I'm gonna write I'm gonna take big walks

[00:10:19] I'm just gonna go to sleep early not gonna worry the cost of living is gonna be so much cheaper like you know But here you feel like oh no, I got to be number one at something to succeed in New York

[00:10:32] Yeah, things definitely move at a much different pace out there. Yeah, it's definitely more relaxing So so your dad obviously had an influence on you with his air play airline experience

[00:10:44] Right and he was a pilot and he got me interested in flying as a kid and when I turned 22 I got my pilot's license after I left school not knowing what I wanted to do

[00:10:56] Went on a jaunt out to California decided that I wanted to sail across the Pacific Pluto Hawaii with a friend found a sailboat that was coming back sailed back to Berkeley

[00:11:06] Which was a tremendous experience all by itself and the nice thing about being on the ocean in the middle of nowhere with nobody else around you is that You can find some clarity that for some bizarre reason is not attainable when you're in the normal world

[00:11:19] So it's like Oklahoma cubed. Yeah, totally totally and so I decided it You know while I was sailing I decided I I know what I knew what I figured out what I wanted

[00:11:28] I wanted to learn how to fly that's all I knew I thought flying was the most awesome thing in the world And I wanted to learn how to do it so when I came back. I got a job

[00:11:34] I worked I saved my money and I got my pilot's license How just these are random questions, but how long does it take to get a pilot's license? anywhere between if you really push you can probably do it in under two or three months for like a jet

[00:11:46] um, but no no no just your private pilot's license for a jet you probably have to go to like Embry riddle or a large or flight safety one of these schools that You get a degree while you're doing it. Okay, and it takes probably four years

[00:12:02] Is that for all jets or just like airliner jets? No, that'll get you into It depends it just depends I want to do a citation if you want to be a corporate pilot learn how to fly citations then they can they can customize a

[00:12:17] Curriculum for you to get you certified in the aircraft that you want to choose You wanted you were going for an airliner. No, I was just wanted to get my private policy Since I didn't know that I wanted to fly for a living or not

[00:12:27] I just knew that I wanted to fly so I got my private and Had a gas doing it But what like what did you do with it? Just just for fun in the end after I became an air traffic controller and I had made some money

[00:12:40] I ended up buying a share in an airplane out here on Long Island and What plane what kind of plane it was a balanka super Viking that's not gonna mean anything to you but

[00:12:50] It's a it was a hand-built aircraft. They're hand-built in Minnesota. They have a steel tubular frame with a fabric skin on them and a Wooden wing which is spruce and mahogany. It's and they're very very strong. The wing is very strong

[00:13:04] They're famous for cutting trees down when they crash Good to know Is it a jet propeller? No, it was a single engine high performance prop It's half-ass gonna go about like a bonanza 140 150 miles an hour. Okay, why don't you use that to go to work every day?

[00:13:23] Had kids bought a house had to sell the airplanes. Okay and When you were flying and you've probably been flying for many years your how old you know 54 so 54 You've been flying for 30 years. Do you ever have a situation where oh no, I might be in trouble

[00:13:40] Yes, absolutely Is it worth it getting a pilot's license knowing that you're gonna have that at least once in your life that feeling of like Oh my god, I might die

[00:13:50] Yeah, I mean I think so I think so absolutely. You know, I jumped out of airplanes with parachutes on it I like those kinds of high stress activities but Flying is is in general Very safe, but that having been said Getting in an airplane

[00:14:11] Airplanes can find ways to kill you that you can't even dream of you know, so it's like what was your scary moment So the scary moment I had was a very situation. It was very similar to JFK junior You know what killed JFK junior he died

[00:14:25] because of an Inadvertent entry into what is referred in the field as a graveyard spiral where and the reason was because it was nighttime He had very little nighttime flying experience and he did not have a visible horizon the visible horizon is how VFR pilots

[00:14:44] Maintain their spatial orientation was VFR VFR is visual flight rules So you're not allowed to when you have a VFR pilot's license You're only allowed to fly when ceilings are at a certain minimum and visibility is a certain minimum like three miles and

[00:14:57] Thousand feet I think it's so he shouldn't have gone on the plane that night Well, no it was night. It was just nighttime and the point was is that he was flying to an island and when he pointed the aircraft south Toward the ocean

[00:15:09] For all you know, he's now you lose all the lights on the surface So for all intents and purposes you're completely IFR and you have to rely on your instruments because their horizons not visible For you to keep the wings level so what happens is is

[00:15:21] if the aircraft Gets into a very gentle turn and begins descending gently at the same time It feels exactly the same as level flight Because normally when the aircraft descends you can feel the bottom fall out from beneath you a little bit But if you turn

[00:15:37] You increase the G forces on your seat also so they compensate for one another So the aircraft can get into a very gentle turn and start descending and you won't even be aware of it unless you're looking at the

[00:15:48] Instruments body is at your brain as far as it knows. It's completely level. Yes, and your brain also There are lots of reasons why? Pilots lose spatial orientation Many things come into play but the body lies to you and

[00:16:05] VFR pilots are not trained to look at the instruments and trust them IFR pilots instrument rated pilots are trained to look at the instruments and believe what they see VFR pilots tend to not believe them because they're not trained to use them in the same way

[00:16:17] IFR pilots are so what happened to me was I found myself in a situation where I was looking at a chart To make sure that I was below a certain altitude because if I didn't want to penetrate some New York trach on airspace above me

[00:16:31] Because I needed permission and I didn't have it yet And the reason I didn't have it is because the radar controller that was talking to me Couldn't identify me on the radar because my transponder wasn't working very well So I was recycling the transponder looking at the chart

[00:16:44] To see where I could turn to be you know out of this air to keep myself out of this airspace and the next thing I looked up and And my altimeter was spinning Which is not a good thing that means you're going down fast

[00:16:59] I was going down very fast, and I didn't even know it and my body didn't you know I just something told me to look up. I looked up and it was nighttime and I saw

[00:17:11] The I had the landing lights of the aircraft on still which are relatively bright And I saw the reflection of the lights on the water south of the you know in the Atlantic Ocean just south of the Fire island and it terrified me

[00:17:24] You know when I was able to pull out of the dive, and I you know, and I got out of the dive I was a relatively safe altitude probably 11 or 1200 feet, but I Nearly peed my pants in the process

[00:17:36] And I just I got so shaken I turned around and flew back to the airport land I got out of the plane. What would you have done if you felt like you couldn't would you have jumped

[00:17:43] But it's hard probably harder to jump when you're spinning. There's no time Yeah, no, and I wasn't spinning the aircraft was in level flight Basically, but it began descending on me because I didn't have it trimmed properly and so is there any way you could have like

[00:17:57] Landed in the trees or landed in well no, I would have put it in the water That was my only option really at that time Maybe the maybe the beach but that would have required a big turn

[00:18:05] And what do you think your odds of survival or if you landed in the water? minimal Wow, so ditching in the water is a risky business Unless you're solely in the yeah, that's over here So so

[00:18:19] So, okay, why did you when did you become an air traffic controller? So I was visiting some friends in Oklahoma after I got back from Hawaii

[00:18:27] I was down in Norman visiting friends at OU and a buddy of mine came bursting to a party that I hadn't seen in four years And he said Tucker. I got just the job for you and he who's a Wild heavy drink and redneck

[00:18:42] One of my favorite people I really like the guy, but he got a job People of all yeah, you gotta agree with them on everything But they're gonna be fun if he says I have a great job for you at least want to listen if it's a joke

[00:18:54] Exactly and it turned out that he was right. He said he said this is a job You really should apply for it that's he got a job as a controller I think I want to say which it's how false Texas, but honestly I can't remember

[00:19:02] He said all you got to do is take a civil service examination and Have some work experience behind you either a combination of four years of full-time experience and or schooling

[00:19:13] And then you could take this exam so I went and took the tests and I did have I got a really good grade on the test And then six or seven months later

[00:19:20] They called me and said come down to the the Academy the Academy happens to be in Oklahoma City Oh, wow. So that's why that's how he knew about it probably too because he probably got his training there I don't know honestly, but um

[00:19:32] But I got the job and then you know They tell you to choose a region of the country that you want to work in and at the time There were nine regions and I wanted to

[00:19:40] Some of my goals in life that I discovered while I was in the boat in the middle of the Pacific where that I wanted to go To Europe frequently because I loved it and I wanted to travel

[00:19:49] And so I thought New York was probably the best place for me to be if I wanted to go to Europe or and you had a public support system here family No, at that time they were all in Oklahoma. So it was it was a jump for me

[00:20:00] But I ended up getting a job at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center Which is a large building out in Long Island. It sits on the entrance to the airport at Long Island McCarthy Airport What year was this?

[00:20:12] 19 October of 88 I went to the Academy and it's only a three month thing the Academy doesn't teach you how to become an air traffic controller It's a screen to screen out undesirable candidates, how do they do that

[00:20:24] You pretend to be an air traffic controller and you'd you have to run all these problems and it's and take a lot of tests There's a lot of stuff to memorize lots of rules lots and lots of rules and

[00:20:38] It's a very stressful environment, I think 40% of my class passed Really, and it's do you think they failed? So I'm imagining there's two ways to fail one is if you don't memorize all the rules correctly

[00:20:51] So you make a mistake or if in the simulations you just emotionally can't control yourself Well, I imagine in a high-stakes situation. I'm gonna use all the wrong words So forgive me if you have two planes in the same air lane and one's going

[00:21:19] It's like I'm one of those math problems in the sd's ones going 400 miles an hour the one behind it's going 500 miles an hour You have to figure out when the behind one's gonna crash into the front one

[00:21:29] Exactly, and you have to protect the and you learn how to protect the airspace around an aircraft So that the other aircraft doesn't penetrate that airspace so you how and this is a something I didn't know until you started

[00:21:40] Alluding to it in the talk I saw you give but how close can two Big jets be to each other without Before they start to affect each other typically if you're above 23,000 feet The rule is five miles lateral and a thousand feet vertical because at that point

[00:21:58] There's so little air that the the air that I'm Manipulating is gonna affect your air. No It has to do with the fact that that those altitudes they're traveling once they get above 10,000 feet Jets move really fast so things happen quickly. So you need a large buffer

[00:22:11] So jets typically all airplanes above 23,000 feet in the continuity of the United States up to 29,000 feet Five miles apart a thousand feet of vertical separation above 29 You need 2,000 feet of vertical and at what point if they're close enough

[00:22:27] Do they actually start to change each other's course because there's some undertow or whatever You mean you mean does the does the wake behind one aircraft to affect the flight of another aircraft? Yeah Yes, it does it can in fact I've seen two situations where

[00:22:47] One was a g5 behind those Boeing 777 and another one was another Private jet behind a Boeing 777. I can't remember what type it was one of them was a g5 for sure And the g5 experienced a 50 degree uncommanded role And he was 20 miles behind the other jet

[00:23:04] 20 miles 20 miles Wow very rare. It's extremely rare when wake turbulence remains wake turbulence tends to spread away You know from the tips of the wings that spreads to the left and the right of the path behind the aircraft and it tends to sink very slowly

[00:23:19] to a level two or three thousand feet below where it was originated and But this was a situation where the aircraft had a the wind was from his right quarter panel So that kept the wake directly behind the triple seven

[00:23:34] The right the right wing wake stayed directly behind the aircraft and the left wing wakes spread out farther further away And and you can't see it It's an invisible thing clear air turbulence basically, but it can be very dangerous And there was a situation with a challenger

[00:23:51] I think a thousand feet below an Airbus 380 passing in opposite directions and the challenger was They encountered so much turbulence the at the aircraft went into an uncommanded role and

[00:24:07] Subsequently a dive from which they had to recover and they damaged the aircraft permanently and had this guy had to make an emergency landing Wow, so but that's those are extremely rare situations

[00:24:17] And they there's lots and lots of research that goes on about how much space we need to have between our plans to keep them safe So you go through the three months training. You're not filtered out

[00:24:43] You're in the 40% that that make it you go you move to New York and now you're kind of like apprenticing exactly you become a trainee It took me three and a half years to become fully certified where I was allowed to sit by myself

[00:24:55] Without somebody plugged in with me and talk to airplanes alone. And so very first day was terrifying really cuz yeah because all the lives of all these people are Literally at your fingertips interesting, you know in the very beginning when you first learn how to do it

[00:25:09] It is the job is stressful for that reason because you're responsible for other people's safety Once you become Relatively competent because it takes a while to become competent on your own really it takes a solid three years before you can become a really

[00:25:25] Decent controller because just so many experiences you have to see in things situations. You have to see and learn from It's a complicated business, but after you become relatively competent You know people's walk up to you on the street and say oh, you're a new traffic controller

[00:25:41] And the first thing out of them out is that's that's a very stressful job And to a certain extent that's true The job can be stressful but not because we're responsible for other people's lives The stress comes from the fact that when you get busy

[00:25:53] you have a large number of decisions to make and They they stack up in like a cue in your brain And your brain can only hold five or six of them and keep them straight

[00:26:05] If you have seven or eight or nine or ten things that have to be done That produces a tremendous amount of stress, right? So what's what's the size of the of the problem here? It like are you dealing with?

[00:26:17] Like at any given point in the met metropolitan area how many planes are in the air both public and private so I've heard This statistics I cannot Account for its veracity, but I've heard that if you were to take a

[00:26:32] Point that's kind of equidistant from Newark Airport to LaGuardia to Kennedy right you take that point You draw a circle ten miles in radius so 20 miles 20 mile diameter circle around that point, right? In that column of airspace at any given time there can be 300 aircraft

[00:26:51] 300 and and and that's not a few of them are in level flight They're all climbing descending changing altitudes turning and they're going hundreds of miles about yeah, and some of them are passing over Correct, so so there's all sorts of things happening and then do

[00:27:07] So so and again, I'm sorry for the naive questions But I'm hoping it sets the setting for the 9-11 story a lot of these planes have their routes planned in advance That's right

[00:27:16] Highways in the sky just like there are on the surface for cars aircraft fly mostly on highways in the sky so they're like Boston to New York Those planes take off every half hour, but they're flying on that same highway in yes, and as long as

[00:27:30] You see them keeping that spacing. You don't have to think the decisions are relatively easy I imagine on that specific route if you if you're talking about a single route of flight That's that's heavily populated. Yes

[00:27:41] And so if you're talking about a single airway then you get busy using speed control American 646 a airspeed 300 knots Roger maintain 300 knots or greater dealt 656 a airspeed 310 Roger reduce speed to 300 knots less because you're because you're seeing them on the radar or whatever

[00:27:56] Mm-hmm, and is it radar that is radar yo so so you're seeing them on the radar and you see that they're okay They're at a good distance. They're both traveling The same speeds so they're not going to each other this one's gonna start to descend

[00:28:10] But that's okay because this one's still far enough away and boom You can make a decision and Wherever you're descending you have right you go into the the routine in your brain. Okay, this plane's descending

[00:28:21] Everything else is normal now go to 250 miles an hour or go down a thousand whatever Do private jets? Did they and or small planes do they get in the way because they're not as regulated

[00:28:33] It's not because well yes and no so you have small planes that can be IFR So they have to be under my control And small planes Don't mix well with jets typically, you know

[00:28:47] So if you have a single engine or a twin-engine prop on the same airway at an altitude that a jet wants It poses a problem You have to get the jet either around him or down below him or above him

[00:28:58] That's a drag in like one person flying a plane and you got to tell some jet going to London like oh move 5,000 feet higher and right increase your speed and Yeah, and it's it's fascinating and it becomes an interesting problem. So that's that's one thing

[00:29:13] That's then you can have VFR aircraft that don't have to fly on the airway So they can go wherever they want to and they're required to maintain Visual separation from other aircraft right if they get into busy airspace it's incumbent upon them

[00:29:28] I think personally this is my take on it for their own safety to talk to an air traffic controller Right because the air traffic controller has the big picture We can see what's going on. We know where the threats are long before they do well and and

[00:29:42] When they pick up the Phone or whatever it is And they say, you know, hey, is there an air traffic control out there? Who are they talking to like how does that get routed so it depends and they can look on a chart

[00:29:55] To find out what frequencies are best to pick up right? So if you're within a certain distance of New York City and you're on the southeast side And you look at the chart or 120 point zero two and I'll talk to New York approach

[00:30:05] And what happens is is you call you called a radar controller either whether he's in a center or an approach control and you say New York this is S4 05 on one zero mile southeast of the Jones Beach Monument Northbound at 6,500 feet looking for advisories

[00:30:22] Okay, and the controller either radar identifies the aircraft, you know He'll tell him to squawk a certain beacon code Squawk means to you know, he dials in a four-digit number the aircraft broadcasts that number and the radar can see it and

[00:30:35] So now I know oh, that's him right so I can put it Make some keyword entries and attach the flight plan for that guy to that beacon code

[00:30:43] So now the radar knows who he is and it puts a full data block on the screen and I can see who this guy is And has have you ever had one of these small planes where suddenly the pilot is like so scared of flying

[00:30:53] Maybe it's raining and lightning and he's not used to this and you've had to kind of like say okay calm down Here's what you do. We're gonna we're gonna help you. I have not personally encountered that but it happens on a regular basis where

[00:31:05] VFR pilots encounter IFR weather and it's a killer. It kills people Literally year. Yeah. Yes It's a very dangerous situation for the you know, mostly for the reason we talked about before spatial disorientation

[00:31:19] It always seems like such a cool thing. Oh get a pilot's license. I am never going to get one I don't need it. I don't I I whatever I mean if you become confident your own abilities zero chance of that happening

[00:31:31] So okay, I've never been terrified in a plane that one time that was the only time I really scared myself There were other times when I had I Was involved in a near mid-air collision While I was talking to an air traffic controller at Republic Airport

[00:31:45] I was in the pattern at Republic Airport and another aircraft entered the pattern and he said he was approaching from the west At the same altitude I was so the moment he said his altitude I

[00:31:55] Which was the altitude I was at I started looking out the window immediately for this other aircraft I didn't see him but he said he was west of the field and I was east of the field So basically I'm no threat

[00:32:05] But the controller kept saying where are you? I don't see you So once the controller fails to identify the aircraft's location as a pilot if I'm paying attention to the frequency And what's going on around me and what's going on in the frequency?

[00:32:16] I became concerned because she couldn't identify the aircraft. She didn't know where he was so I Was looking I was I was on what's called the downwind which is where you're parallel

[00:32:28] I'm gonna land on the runway here and I'm opposite direction to the direction that I'm going to land right So I'm gonna fly a rectangle. I'm gonna go parallel to the runway pass it a little bit

[00:32:38] I'm gonna make a right turn onto what's called the crosswind then I'm gonna make another right turn under What's called the final? So I'm looking over my shoulder to see where the center of the runway is because of the

[00:32:51] That's how you determine when you're gonna pull power and start descending and apply flaps is your location when you pass in a runway opposite direction So I'm looking over my shoulder at the at the runway. I decided it's time to start pulling the power

[00:33:02] I look up and there's an aircraft right in front of me come any other way and At the same time I looked up the controller said Cessna for zero uniform got you have traffic at 12 o'clock

[00:33:12] I have my opposite direction and he was he was not half a mile away. He was a football field away He was very very scary close and we were opposite direction and I was probably doing

[00:33:21] 80 or 90 knots I was an assassin 172 at the time and he was probably doing the same and I just pushed the yoke forward as far as it would go and turned it as far to the right as I could which is dangerous As hell at low altitude

[00:33:33] But I missed him and I didn't put the aircraft into an incredibly unstable You know I didn't spin it or put it into a tremendous dive

[00:33:40] I was able to get out of the way and recover right away. Did you fight him after you both landed? No, it just happens You know, no, not at all. Not at all. It didn't even occur to me to go talk to the guy

[00:33:49] Okay, he just didn't people get lost it happens, you know, or they say the wrong word, you know on what's the field Thinking you're thinking the whole time. I'm used to the field but you say the word West It just happens. You know

[00:34:01] So so I want to get to the 9-11 drive one more question 1981 Ronald Reagan fired 11,345 air traffic controllers when they had a union strike whether he was right or wrong I have no idea. I only looked up this statistic right before I came over here, but

[00:34:24] The I guess the feeling was he'll never do that because how will people take up take off and land if there's no air traffic Controllers and if it takes three years as you say to train so why do you think he could do that?

[00:34:37] And and why did we as a country survive that? Well, it happened like I said I got hired in 88 and Didn't start working as a controller as a trainee in New York Center until January of 89 So it was long after I got there long after the strike

[00:34:57] However that having been said the reason I got a job is because of the strike They were still desperate for air traffic controllers eight years later, you know, so what did they do the day after?

[00:35:06] Well the day what they do what they do typically in any situation where staffing is a problem, right as they put tremendous restrictions on the space that is required between aircrafts so so the The New York Center will say to New York approach control

[00:35:21] I want 30 miles between all departures on the same airway, right or something and they can be a little draconian You know and and passengers on airplanes suffer from stuff like that whenever large restrictions get put to the economy

[00:35:34] Suffer you think because maybe less people wanted to fly at that point. I Would I wouldn't be shocked at all if that was the case because I guess there was there was Recession around them, but I didn't

[00:35:45] You know it was related to a whole bunch of things. I don't know how much this was a factor That never occurred to me to think about it. That's a good question. So so okay 9-11 you wake up you go to work

[00:35:55] It's the most beautiful day in the world. It was awesome. It was so beautiful The sky was so blue. I couldn't believe it that like I told you before when I was walking into work

[00:36:03] I stopped and I spent several minutes just gawking at the sky because it was so crystal and beautiful It was like a special day. I remember thinking that too at like 7 a.m. Like oh my gosh

[00:36:13] This is amazing. Yeah, and pilots and controllers refer to that as a cavu day ceilings invisibility unlimited Which pilots love because they can see all kinds of stuff and you and when you're working in in a radar facility that covers

[00:36:26] Areas around New York City you constantly hear pilots saying wow the city looks gorgeous today all the time And that's what they were doing that morning. The city looks fantastic. It's really beautiful So

[00:36:37] You want me to keep going? Yeah, yeah, okay, so so I went into work. I sat down I got to work sometime between 6 30 and 7 in the morning

[00:36:45] And forgive me it's been so long. I don't remember the timeline or what exactly time it was when things started to happen But I think 845 was the first Hit but open your timeline so well before then so in the vicinity of 8 o'clock things start happening

[00:36:57] So I'm working. I'm sitting at a departure sector that works departures West and Southwest out of New York. It's called the Yardley sector sector 55 So west out of New York means like if something takes off from JFK, it's probably going to like Chicago or California

[00:37:11] That's Northwest so different different areas. So if you're going to go out of Kennedy and you're going to go to L Yeah, Southern California Sometimes Northern California depending on the day of the week and where the winds are Yeah, you'll come out over

[00:37:25] You'll leave Kennedy head for Coltsnack, New Jersey and then Robbinsville, New Jersey, which is kind of near Trenton those are the names of Radio AIDS navigation actually Coltsnack as a VOR Robbinsville as a VOR and then they head west from there

[00:37:38] Oh, they don't just go straight west after no, they don't you waste time off the runway and just go right? You have to have a very the environment has to be very structured the way departures go

[00:37:48] It has to be very structured so that so that the arrival paths and the departure paths Don't conflict with one another I see and so that all the departure paths from multiple airports

[00:37:57] Don't conflict with one another like a plane takes off and like immediately gets out of the way the planes Descending yeah, so the yeah and so controllers and we have you know that's stuff that we know by road

[00:38:07] It's okay the departure controllers know where to put the airplanes They have gates that they have to put them through before they get to a certain departure fix so the departure fix for Kennedy is called Robbinsville and then

[00:38:17] LaGuardia and its satellite airport, which is West white planes and Newark and its tremendous number of satellite airports use other departure fixes to go the same direction So I have two southwest bound departure fixtures out of Newark and LaGuardia and a westbound departure fix at a Kennedy

[00:38:35] And those two those three routes all cross one another Sorry There's two southwest bounds that are parallel to one another and they both cross the westbound Kennedys So that's a little complex

[00:38:47] You know that adds a little complication to the mix right near right there that makes the sector a little more complicated Anytime you have crossing traffic. It's a little complicated, especially when some of its

[00:38:55] Climbing and some of its descending so on these Southwest departure routes. I work departures out of New York I also work arrivals into Baltimore and Washington National Airport Ronald Reagan Airport Which pissed a lot of controllers

[00:39:07] When they name when they named the airport after Ronald Reagan cuz you know exactly so So that I was busy. I had a lot of arrivals into Washington and into Baltimore and I had a lot of departures out of New York and so

[00:39:23] lot of vectoring a lot of speed control and I Had a situation where I had two airplanes landing at Charlotte North Carolina and we had a restriction in place for Charlotte We had to deliver 30 miles in trail to airplanes landing at Charlotte

[00:39:38] So I had a guy who came from Boston Center who was level at 26,000 feet Ended up climbing to 28 and I had a departure out of New York who wanted to go into the mid 30s Also landing Charlotte and he came out really just directly underneath this other airplane

[00:39:53] so it was a US Air behind at Delta and The US Air came out and and so now I have this once so now I have a situation where I have two airplanes that are

[00:40:01] Basically co-located and I have to put 30 miles between them and it's a short sector So I got a lot of work to do big vectors big speed control so I slow the departure down to 250 knots immediately and Try to speed the guy up who's in level flight and

[00:40:17] So while this is going on Because I slowed the back guy down He begins to climb very rapidly so you they transfer their their airspeed into vertical speed Because all you have to do to slow a jet down is just pull the column back

[00:40:35] Point the nose up you lose some speed, but you start gaining altitude rapidly So the point was is this guy climbed very rapidly. I got him far enough behind the Delta that I could get him above the Delta But the ceiling of my airspace was 28,000 feet

[00:40:49] So I needed permission from the controller who owned the airspace above me to climb the US Air higher into that structure into his airspace So I happen to have an assistant sitting next to me We call it a D side or a

[00:41:04] Handoff controller or an H side and I asked her call 42 see if you can get higher for the US Air so she calls and I hear her talking while I'm busy and I'm talking airplanes and I hear her talking

[00:41:17] I can't hear what the other controllers telling her and she hangs up the phone and she starts laughing and She says he says he's got a hijack over there He can't take the point out point out is what we call it when we you know

[00:41:28] Push another aircraft into another sectors airspace without giving them communications with the airplane So she's laughing cuz she didn't believe him yet because and it's because the guy who was sitting at that sector sector 42

[00:41:41] Had a kind of a flair for the dramatic and but saying now is a plane hijacked that seems like borderline illegal In such a professional capacity absolutely, you know so shit, but she didn't believe him

[00:41:53] No, she didn't believe him and I guess because also that day. I think a lot of people throughout the day were Experience going into denial exactly and it's central. It's central to the whole thing

[00:42:05] I mean is that it was an experience that was just so far out of our realm of past experience It was it was not it couldn't possibly happen right so she was in this upper airspace that said come out of Boston

[00:42:19] No, this is the legwardia or departure. I can't remember where he took off up I want to say legwardia, but It was usr 542 so he's climbing rapidly and and I had to level them off 28,000 feet because I couldn't go any higher that

[00:42:33] Than that without Dave's permission Dave was the first name of the controller who was working at 42 So we didn't believe Dave and so she's kind of laughing He says he's got a hijack over there and I said get a real controller over there, you know

[00:42:45] Just off the cuff because we always kid each other all the time Sort of relentlessly actually So but it turned out to be true what had happened was is Dave was had accepted the handoff on a flight coming from

[00:43:02] Boston Center who had departed Boston and was headed for the West Coast. It was American 11 and The Boston Center controller called him and said look we think American 11 has been hijacked Keep an eye on them and and I'll get back. Why do they think that? There was some

[00:43:20] There was some talk on the frequency. I Think the hijackers accidentally keyed the mic up and you could hear over the frequency I couldn't but the controllers and the other pilots who are on the Boston Center frequency at that time Heard one of the hijackers broadcasting

[00:43:36] Inadvertently over the frequency saying things like staying your seats everything's going to be okay that kind of crap So so they were pretty sure but officially they were saying correct

[00:43:45] We didn't know for sure but the but the Boston Center controller picked up on it right away and thought look I think this guy's a hijack and then and So then you get things that confirm that right away if the aircraft

[00:43:59] IFI aircraft that air traffic controllers are talking to don't do anything unless we tell them to Right. They're not allowed to turn they're not allowed to change their altitude They're not allowed to change their speed without without permission within you know within a certain

[00:44:13] amount of reason anyway, so Then the the American Airlines aircraft that they turn the transponder off big no-no What's the transponder the transponder is the device in the aircraft that broadcasts that four digit code that tells us Okay, I told that guy to squawk 409 or sorry 4055

[00:44:34] That must be American 11 or whatever his beacon code was at that time We call it a beacon code and when we instruct the aircraft to set it we use the word squawk

[00:44:42] So we'll tell if I need an aircraft to change his beacon code because maybe I have two airplanes on the same code Which happens occasionally You tell the aircraft reset your transponder squawk 4053 or whatever the number is going to be and you computer will assign it for you

[00:44:58] So anyway, the guy they had turned off his transponder so now that changes some things now We can't see the altitude that the aircraft is broadcasting anymore So now we know the radar Because we have there are two kinds of radar

[00:45:11] There's primary radar which is normally what you think of when you think of radar where they the antenna sends out a radio signal It bounces off an object and that signal is returned to the antenna and it and it calculates

[00:45:22] How far away it is based on the time it took how much rotation took place between when the signal was sent when it was received So that's that's called primary radar Or reflective radar

[00:45:32] Then there's something called secondary radar or beacon radar and that is and it's attached to the same antenna There's a device on the antenna called an interrogator it sends out a signal and then when it hits an aircraft that has an operating

[00:45:46] Transponder the transponder responds to that signal the response to that interrogation it broadcasts its four-digit code and Some transponders are capable of broadcasting the aircraft's altitude. We call that mode C

[00:46:00] And then there's there's all kinds of new stuff now that airplanes can broadcast to us through radar and through other surveillance systems But at the time the the important point was is that we could no longer see his altitude

[00:46:12] So when it changed that the target that we were looking at changed The presentation of the target changes shape So so now we can see what we believe is an American is American 11 We see a primary a very strong primary target because the radar is pretty good

[00:46:28] It's it saw the target no problem when they get to low altitude and you know There's ground clutter or you or you have a lots of precipitation or or Temperature changes in the air

[00:46:39] Then the radar can get a little iffy, but we had perfect radar target on the guy We believed it was we were still believed that the target we were looking at was American 11 and

[00:46:51] He turned up to the north first and then he turned to the south and basically flew down the Hudson River Valley toward New York Now With the guys in Boston who they the first ones to see okay, this is a hijack situation

[00:47:21] Yeah, was there anything else they could do like a base Assuming they have alerted the military immediately could the military have just like flown a plane right into that plane or do something You know it's tough for me to say what the military could possibly have done but

[00:47:39] From my understanding of the situation at the time there was no protocol Right, you know what are they gonna do and how long did it take anyway? And who's gonna order who's gonna order a fighter jet to shoot down an aircraft full of American civilians

[00:47:53] Yeah, I'm pretty sure when you don't know what's going on or where exactly like this is gonna land somewhere and Exactly and the vast majority of hijacks in the past all you know The aircraft goes someplace else and then they make demands, you know, right?

[00:48:04] And that's the experience that we had all trained for we'd never trained for what happened on 9-11 Did you have another question in there? I'm no, okay, so so anyways We're looking at the target of what we believe is American 11

[00:48:18] And we're pretty certain that we're looking at at the airplane and it turned out to be the case we were correct and So I had no longer. I was no longer busy at this time now once the American starts

[00:48:29] Head in southbound, you know, we knew we knew we had a hijack at that point Once the transponder turned off and the guy turned The controllers in Boston Center were absolutely sure they had a hijack and somewhere in there

[00:48:42] One of the flight attendants on board American 11 had called American Airlines had called their operating base and Told them that the aircraft had been hijacked and they had murdered the pilots And I think a passenger as well

[00:48:58] So we're looking at this target that we believe is American 11 heading south down the Hudson River And it doesn't occur to us any of us that a crash is imminent, right? That it's just completely outside the realm of possibility

[00:49:10] like what was in the wrong possibility like what as They were gonna take the aircraft somewhere right probably Offshore from the United States land it and make the man's like they always do you know But like so like it's a big plane

[00:49:23] So they had fuel to get anywhere pretty much right well the aircraft was was fueled to go all the way to California So they they could get

[00:49:29] Some place that they wanted to you know God only knows where and and it didn't occur to us really to think about where because at the Same time we're still working. We have traffic to take care right so but

[00:49:40] What I did at the time was because I was no longer busy is All the sectors have the ability to communicate with the military. So I called Trying to think about what I can say when I can't I called

[00:49:56] A military radar approach control that is responsible for identity identifying aircraft Offshore before they enter the United States Huntress IDs is the name is was the name that they use and it was part of Norat North American regional air defense so the people that I talked to

[00:50:17] Work up in what used to be Griffith's Air Force Base in Rome, New York So so their their job in general is to prevent aircraft from sneaking into the US

[00:50:26] Yes, in general that was this particular group of people that I was going to talk to so I called Huntress and I tried to tell them Listen, we have a hijack. It's American 11. He's a Boeing 767. I think that's what he was flying

[00:50:38] And he's southbound over to Hudson River. Can you see me? He's about 15 or 20 miles north of the city I couldn't I can't remember exactly where he was at the time I call and the person who answered the phone was a military

[00:50:52] Radar not a controller. I don't think but a you know radar surveillance operator of some sort and She seemed very young and she said where is he again?

[00:51:02] And I told her again where he was and she said where I don't see him and I gave her a very precise location She goes I said I said can't you see him? It's a very strong primary target

[00:51:13] It's it's the only one there within miles, you know, there aren't any other airplanes really within several miles of the target She goes I can't see him. I'm looking at thousands of airplanes. I can't see that one

[00:51:22] So I hung up on them. I gave up on norad and hung up the phone and then While this was going on right so every eye in the room is staring at this target very intensely

[00:51:37] And how did you how did anybody given that there was normal aircraft at the time? Like you say 300 in the area How did everybody not that many on that day? But but how many how was it possible to focus on all the other aircraft?

[00:51:52] Probably everybody was like obsessed with oh my gosh, what's going on here? Yeah, no, we managed to get the job done It's part of the job is this division of attention where you can you know, you jump back and forth between things

[00:52:03] You're looking at one thing you do something else At this point had as a as there been any command like all aircraft immediately land or not yet

[00:52:11] Okay, no because you know in in the beginning. It's like the fog of war really I mean it's like there's a very there's It's unsettling. It's disconcerting everybody's not feeling right and You know, you don't

[00:52:26] You know, we weren't trained to project into the future what might be happening and what what can we can do about it? You know, we're all we we do air traffic controllers keep airplanes apart from one another

[00:52:35] That's our job, you know, we keep them apart from one another and apart from the ground and So we're looking at this one target and the controller at 42 was

[00:52:47] Was calling other controllers and he's on the phone with other people and he's trying to coordinate and say, you know Can you know can do you see this guy make sure you're watching this target? and

[00:52:58] The manager of the facility was came in and standing behind the guy at 42 He's got a phone in each year and and so everybody's looking at this target and we're trying to work at the same time

[00:53:09] So while Dave is talking to the guy standing behind him the manager of facility, I think Somebody on the other side of the room notices that United 175's target separates from its full data block

[00:53:23] Which is not a meaning meaning it had its route planned out and now it's separate from it Right. So the air so what happened? Yes another one going to California I want I want to say United 175 was going to San Francisco also departed Boston Um

[00:53:38] So what happened was is somebody on board the aircraft whether it was the hijackers whether it would happen in the scuffle Whether it was intentional. We don't know somebody changed the beacon code So they didn't turn the transponder off and United 175, but they did change the beacon code

[00:53:51] So now the computer doesn't know who that airplane is so United 175's data block Starts flying down the airway, but the target turned Off the airway and began to climb and so a controller behind me who didn't have any traffic at that time

[00:54:06] Who was just looking at the what was going on said? Hey, there's an intruder over allentown over allentown He was in the vicinity of Allentown, Pennsylvania And the reason he called it an intruder is because when the radar doesn't know who the target is it changes the

[00:54:22] Presentation of the target it changes it into the letter I F Actually the capital I and that means that that target is what we call a mode C intruder He's in airspace that he doesn't belong in or the computer doesn't know who he is

[00:54:35] And it turned out to be United 175 So now we're staring at United 175. We still don't know that the American Is about to or has crashed over it. I can't remember exactly what the timeline is like I said

[00:54:46] Well, when you hung up on norad did you call another military? No, no by that time I had work to do, you know, okay, so So we're looking at this now. We're looking at this United target and we're looking at the United target

[00:54:57] And I want I want to say maybe the American target had already disappeared which means he had crashed, you know By the time we're looking at the situation with United 175 I

[00:55:11] Don't recall and it turns out that one of the departures at a Kennedy who was on my frequency actually asked me You know, they start saying look this did you guys know that? The North Tower of the World Trade Center is on fire

[00:55:26] There's a huge column of smoke coming out of it So no and it didn't I didn't put two and two together right then and there I didn't occur to me that it could possibly have been American 11

[00:55:34] So American 11 was flying south of the Hudson, but because United 175 also started to become a problem You called norad you did what you could You started focusing on this other situation was there anybody tracking American 11 right into the World Trade Center?

[00:55:49] Yeah, there were people watching absolutely in fact the guy who was working at Kennedy High Sector vectored an aircraft To intercept that target to see if he could locate The American because we wanted to know right so he vectored a an American Eagles flight in a regional jet

[00:56:05] Not American Eagles American Eagle He vectored this guy to the locate the last known location of the target and asked him if he saw any airplanes in there And the guy said no, there's nothing

[00:56:16] And the last known altitude of the American I want to say was 29,000 feet somewhere in that vicinity But anyway, so the United's Target starts climbing turning and now he's on the wrong code He's off course and he's not talking. He's not answering Dave is Dave is calling him

[00:56:33] United 175 New York United 175 if you hear New York Ident, which is you know They push a button on the transponder it makes the target presentation change again to grab our attention That didn't happen no response from the aircraft. So now we have another hijack and and Dave is

[00:56:54] You know, he's getting very very upset now two hijacks within, you know 15 minutes of one another Like what was it? How did you know he's a very upset? What did he start saying? Uh You know, I can't even remember what what the words were but the room

[00:57:12] The tension in the room had was already very very high and it just went up another five notches like were you thinking How many more are there? No, you know, it's just one thing we're just taking things as they came and dealing with them one at a time

[00:57:25] As they came and the and as you know already and as we're going to get to that this united becomes a big problem For my two departures that I was working that were going to charlotte um so It turns out that the the united starts

[00:57:42] Turning southbound and descending rapidly and when he started turning to the south and descending I'm thinking, you know, he could be a problem for these two guys Because you you just had two guys take off right and they're and they're set

[00:57:53] Well, I had one who was enroute at 26 or 28,000 feet. I can't remember and the us air went up to 28 behind him Um So I have these two southwestbound departures and the united starts turning toward them and descending now. I'm getting

[00:58:08] Really worried now. I'm trying to formulate a plan. What am I going to do if I descend these guys? Are they going to get under him? Is he going to descend rapidly and beat them down if I climb them can I climb them?

[00:58:18] I can't climb them. Dave's busy. I can't talk to him right now. I can't penetrate his airspace. I mean Push comes to shove. I can do whatever I want if there aren't any targets around, you know I have I have that kind of flexibility available to me

[00:58:30] The rules have some bendability to them so The united starts turning toward these guys and descending at them And now I'm thinking all right where the winds if I turn them to the right, they're going to slow down

[00:58:42] If I turn them to the left, they're going to speed up Um, I think I can get away from this guy if I go to the left

[00:58:47] So my plan now is is basically to go to the left, but I'm going to wait and see what he does a little bit more What's he going to do? Is he going to turn southbound? Is he going to continue like the Americans last path with southbound?

[00:58:59] Right, or is he going to turn toward the city? Is he in emergency? Is he not a hijack? Is this guy just have serious problems? He needs to land the airplane So we were all hoping that that was the case. We really were thinking, you know

[00:59:10] Maybe maybe this guy has a serious issue and he's trying to deal with he can't talk to us He's just trying to get the airplane down and put it on the ground um

[00:59:18] So he starts turning toward new york city, you know as he's he turns from south to southeast Now he's a real threat to my tour. He's definitely a threat. There's no question about it So I start telling my two airplanes about his presence

[00:59:31] Um, delta 25 11 you have traffic at one o'clock and one five miles southbound We believe it's a hijack Boeing 767 with united colors um You know you can and I then I gave him permission to take evasive action

[00:59:44] I said if this guy becomes a problem for you do whatever you need to do to miss him Could he see on his radar? He didn't see him. Um And then I called the traffic to the us air behind the delta

[00:59:54] And I was so worked up and the frequency was getting a little garbled because other you know other people are trying to talk when the us air Responded to the traffic call that I gave him. He said is that the guy we're following?

[01:00:07] And at the time I might have responded affirmative because I didn't hear exactly what he said Um because I thought that he meant is that the guy that the guy we're following is good is trying to miss Two different things completely. Yeah, you know um So then

[01:00:24] Now I'm I'm thinking all right time times up. I got no choices left I really have to move these guys out of the way because they're not gonna They're not you know, it's it's easier for me. You weren't sure though

[01:00:34] What the path of I wasn't sure which way to go right because if the guy If the guy turned any tighter and I went to the right I was going to put him how I was going to put them together

[01:00:44] You know, which is what I'm trained to not do You know, it's every goes against the grain of everything inside me physically You can feel it physically as a controller when you do something that's wrong Your body reacts to it immediately um

[01:00:57] Even before the your conscious brain knows that you've made a mistake your body knows you start to sweat You start to shake your face turns red whatever um So The united's descending and now he's pointed right at him

[01:01:11] So I I I finally threw in the tower said I gotta I gotta do something delta 25 11 turn left immediately heading 200 usr 542 turn left immediately heading 200 so that was about a 50 degree left turn um They both turn They respond to my transmissions With In my judgment not sufficient enthusiasm

[01:01:37] The delta responded very nonchalantly to the instruction because we don't tell Airplane we don't use the word immediately when we give in aircraft instructions If we do they can do things that hurt people in the airplane, right?

[01:01:49] If I tell an aircraft to climb immediately and somebody's standing up they're going to the floor um And if the if the aircraft climbs sufficiently rapidly Anybody who's standing up is going to be on the floor

[01:02:00] If I tell an aircraft to descend rapidly from level flight and he pushes the nose over very fast People who are not belted in are going to be hitting the ceiling

[01:02:08] So you risk breaking people literally breaking people's necks. So we don't use the word immediately unless it's really really called for Gosh, I'm gonna use my seatbelts from now on Yeah, I never do right right, yeah, if you're not seated and

[01:02:23] Another story altogether I had a situation with severe turbulence where a passenger was hurt um Because they actually flew up hit the ceiling and then got slammed back down into the floor um But anyway, so I turned the airplanes to the left and now I'm

[01:02:41] I mean, I'm not a very religious guy, but I was basically praying that what I had done was going to be the correct thing And unfortunately even in random chance

[01:02:50] You go okay, so you don't know where the united is exactly right or you see it. No, no, I see him on a radar I know exactly where he is. I mean was there I mean air is big like uh was there Okay, admittedly they would get

[01:03:05] closer too close for comfort like you mentioned earlier five miles is the perimeter you have to stay outside of Maybe they were were you worried they were just gonna get within those five miles or you were actually worried about a collision

[01:03:16] I was worried about the threat of a collision. Was that like really possible and you're absolutely like what were the odds Even if you had just left it to random chance They weren't good. I can I could say that had I not turned them the targets would have

[01:03:30] Superimposed at the same altitude Okay, so because they were going on the same air lane or no, they were just the where they're low where they were located When the united turned right into these guys head on um

[01:03:44] in fact, we looked at the data and what actually happened was the the Both the delta and the us air responded to So let me back up a little bit There's another device on the aircraft called t-cast terminal collision avoidance system

[01:03:59] T-cast provides radar and limited radar information to the pilots and if it detects a threat from another aircraft Um And happily they didn't turn the mode c off on the other aircraft the transponder was still broadcasting and it was broadcasting its altitude right

[01:04:15] So if t-cast can see the other aircraft's altitude it can it can formulate a solution To miss the other other plane And it will instruct the pilots descend descend now

[01:04:26] Or climb climb now. It doesn't make lateral decisions. The software hasn't gotten there yet. They're working on it, but But it's very effective to make those like this is in 2001 where they making those decisions based on kind of

[01:04:40] Some other pilot wrote if this happens then do this or was there a kind of ai involved or there's an algorithm Absolutely. Yeah, it uses an algorithm It's very effective and it's and it's its job is to do to solve problems that we've screwed up right as controllers

[01:04:55] And and also just stuff happens, you know um So the the delta and the us air both received the the delta didn't descend but the us air did

[01:05:05] And what we think happened is is that the hijackers actually heard the t-cast on board their aircraft and stopped descending because they leveled off at 28.2 28,200 feet When they when they passed the delta and they went, you know

[01:05:19] When the situation was in play i'm looking at them. They're eight miles apart pointed right at each other opposite direction closing in a thousand miles an hour Took my breath away almost physically. Um, how many miles apart were they eight miles apart eight miles apart

[01:05:34] So going a thousand miles an hour it's like 12 seconds. They're gonna hit it wasn't it wasn't pretty um So anyway, so the turns ended up working. I turned them both

[01:05:45] The hijack aircraft went behind them but not by much and the reason it wasn't as you know, the turns would have worked much better But the the hijacker stopped turning the airplane

[01:05:55] So my solution became not so good anymore because they weren't doing and they weren't doing what they were doing when I Initiated the solution, you know, so I I used to beat myself up about you know, maybe I should have turned them to the right

[01:06:06] Maybe I should have turned them sooner All kinds of stuff And in the end it doesn't matter because they didn't hit So the guy ascending though There was a guy who you instructed to ascend now he's in Because the because the united 175 was no longer descending

[01:06:23] The one that used told to ascend was now in trouble Well, no, I had him level at 28 000 feet So he was level of 28 and the us the delta was level of 28 and the us air was behind him level at 26 000 feet So the hijackers miss the delta

[01:06:37] And then they barely miss the us air also because they started descending again once they passed the us or once they passed the delta Now they're a threat to the us air because they start descending and he's at 26 000 feet So they descended right into him

[01:06:50] But again the turns worked So he went the hijackers went behind the us air but the they were close enough that the us air pilot Told me i'm responding to an r.a. A resolution advisories from the t-cass

[01:07:01] And they're obligated pilots are obligated to do what that thing tells them to do So if the device says to send now he has to descend Um, there's a lot more to it than that but but basically and he has to inform me that he's doing it

[01:07:13] So he says i'm responding to to uh a t-cass r.a. And I said i'm sorry about that I really thought he was going to hit the delta um

[01:07:22] And basically forgot about the us air but I had turned to both and it turned out to be a non issue but um So i'm over we don't know that there's been a crash yet

[01:07:30] In in this room other people do right because people are watching the news know that an aircraft has struck the royal trade center, but uh and the Facility chief who was standing behind 42 with a phone in each ear

[01:07:40] I think he knew that an aircraft had struck the royal trade center, but I wasn't I don't think he knew yet that it was the american um And then we watched the united Pointed at the city and we watched him descending and he was coming down fast

[01:07:54] You know 3000 feet a minute 5000 feet a minute 7 000 feet a minute at one point Extremely fast in fact so fast that it was difficult to see Later on watch the images on the television where you see the united striking the south tower at a world trade center and um

[01:08:11] I'm amazed that they were actually able to recover from the dive Before they hit the the building because they were coming down so fast Really scary and you know and and we tried to tell ourselves

[01:08:21] You know maybe it's still it's just an emergency and they're trying to go to newark Because they were pointed right at newark before they were pointing out because newark was between them and the city

[01:08:30] Do they have to go past the city to go around for the south tower? No, they have to go into the ocean No, they were they were coming basically from the southwest so they came from like sanny hook new jersey area

[01:08:42] They it kind of over flew that area um But they had to turn the aircraft violently because they weren't pointed right at the building You know so that at the at the end you see the aircraft in a very very steep turn when it impacts the building

[01:08:57] And that's because they weren't you know, they weren't aiming properly beforehand um Not as easy to fly an airplane that's doing 700 miles an hour over the ground

[01:09:06] As you might think yeah, I can't imagine actually like how do you go 700 miles an hour and you're just a few miles away hitting You know while on the one hand I can understand the concept of landing on a runway because you're slowing down

[01:09:18] You're descending you're on a route, but hitting a Target at that speed seems difficult like okay, and this is a weird question But on a scale of zero to ten would you say these guys were good pilots? No, absolutely not

[01:09:33] But um, but you don't have to be that good a pilot to just point the thing You know you grab the steering wheel the yoke in an aircraft or the control column and you point it You know that's that's all they had to do um no

[01:09:48] But they picked the right day, you know the visibility was perfect right if they were going to do it that was the day um but anyway, so we watched the united descending and

[01:09:59] One of the controllers says maybe he's trying to get to the fours at newark meaning there There are two runway number four at newark run four left and four right

[01:10:06] So maybe he's trying to hit one of the fours at newark and the guy behind me who's also uh A former commercial pilot said no no no he's coming down too fast. He's going he's going too fast There's no way he's going to make newark. He's going in

[01:10:17] Meaning he's going to crash and somebody said no no no maybe he's going to go to leguardia Which is on the other side. It was directly opposite of you know, the world trade center It was kind of a line newark world trade center leguardia

[01:10:26] So maybe he's trying to get to leguardia and the guy behind me again He says no he's coming down too hard and we watched the radar targets update every 12 seconds And I don't remember the exact altitudes we saw during the target presentations, but um

[01:10:40] You know, I want to say 1200 feet 800 feet And somewhere in there the guy behind me jimmy says He says nope two more hits. That's it meaning we're going to see two more targets appear on the radar and then he's going to be gone

[01:10:54] So we all knew at that point that the aircraft was going to crash and then he was going to crash in lower Manhattan and We're just you know terrified you could have heard a pin drop in that room. It was it was awful

[01:11:06] both prior to the the near made air collision situation that we had encountered before Dead silence in that room until until the targets passed each other um

[01:11:17] I think I held my breath the entire time and I actually that's not true because I remember jumping up out of my chair and yelling obscenities at the radar You know because I turned these guys I thought I had done the right thing

[01:11:30] But then the hijacker stopped turning and they got much closer than I intended to ever get And I screamed at the radar Um But then you know so then we watched the united disappear from the radar and we knew we had crashed

[01:11:45] And it was just kind of like the hell do we do now, you know and um But at the same time i'm working traffic. I have things to do and I had a job to do

[01:11:53] So i'm talking airplanes climbing them descending them doing all the airplanes that you were talking to at that point They knew what was happening right or not really I didn't care at that point because I now I had work to do right

[01:12:05] Did you have to land them all was that the order then? No, I didn't stay in my seat long enough. What happened was is the supervisor walked into the room and uh He came over to me and he said do you want to get up?

[01:12:17] And I said if you have somebody to get me up, I'd really rather get up because I was having a A tough time. I could have worked, but it was just

[01:12:25] Tremendous. I was under tremendous amount of stress at that time. We all were like what when you say tough time though like Were you what were you were you feeling exactly? What does that mean? Okay, so that's that's a good question. So controllers

[01:12:38] Our job is to keep people safe and in the end The way we can We think about pilots passengers airplanes. They're kind of like our babies, right? We take care of them um Some controllers do a better job than others, you know, we're there were people

[01:12:57] But uh in the end there are our babies, you know and Watching an aircraft crash at any time regardless of You know the cause Is a tremendously negative thing for a controller and it can have tremendous emotional effects on controllers lives

[01:13:15] Uh, I don't know if you remember the crash in su city, iowa with the dc 10 crashed and then flew off into the cornfield Or it didn't fly off but crashed Near the runway and then skidded down into a cornfield and a lot of people died um

[01:13:29] I met the controller who was working that day and it ruined his life He became a raging alcoholic Couldn't get the images out of his skull, you know straight ptsd um

[01:13:42] So in the room we we were having a very difficult time coming to terms with what had just happened And uh my voice was cracking. I'm talking to airplanes and i'm

[01:13:52] Yeah, tears were streaming down my face because I knew everybody on that aircraft had just perished and god only knows how many people on the ground We didn't know it was a world trade center. We didn't know where the aircraft had crashed

[01:14:02] I just knew it was lower Manhattan Um, and you were too busy to set to just yell out. Hey what happened to that plane or No, we knew what happened

[01:14:11] But but you just you knew it had crashed, but when did you find out it was a world trade center? Uh within a few minutes because because the chief and the deputy were standing behind 42 when um When the near-mini-air collision happened and they watched

[01:14:28] And as the united descended toward new york city the chief sent the deputy into the cafeteria to go look at the television to look at cnn So that the deputy walked into the cafeteria

[01:14:43] Seconds before the united hit the world trade center and he knew it was going to happen He actually said to the people next to him. There's another one coming And seconds later you saw the images of the united crashing at the world trade center

[01:14:56] So and then he came back and reported and he had a phone too And so we knew within seconds of the of the united where it crashed, but um, did you start telling planes then?

[01:15:05] This would happen or you're just kind of like no no no no you only You know loud, you don't want to no It's just that you don't want to transfer that stress to the pilots They got enough to right to worry about already, you know

[01:15:14] So so just waiting at one second at one point when you right before you called norad you said You had to figure out what you were allowed to tell me what you couldn't what not

[01:15:22] I don't want you to tell me what you weren't allowed to tell me. No, there's really nothing there It's just I was I just wanted to pause for a minute and think about what I was going to say

[01:15:29] Okay, all right. I just wondered if there was some other no there's no there's no top secret stuff nothing Um, no controllers don't even have to have secret clearance military. It sounds like they were not even really involved at all

[01:15:43] In the it turns out that they were deeply involved, but not the person that I talked to okay Um, they they were aware of the situation as soon as boston senator became aware of it

[01:15:52] They were made aware of it right away, but there's nothing they could really do No, I don't think so unless they said the missile. I mean listen even if we had Airborne fighters over new york city that just happened to be there. Let's just take that as a

[01:16:04] Hypothetical case right you got airborne fighters who happen to be in a vicinity in new york city Who are in a position to maybe respond to this situation? What are they going to do?

[01:16:14] There was no protocol. There's no right. There's nobody that can order them to shoot down the civilian aircraft and nobody that will So let's look at it First from the military's point of view Let's say they knew

[01:16:26] Yes, these two planes are definitely heading to the world trade center Let's say they knew 100 chance these two planes are going to hit the world trade center Do you think they would have had the capability and do you think they would have made the decision

[01:16:38] to send missiles to shoot down the plane? No, absolutely not Because the person who gave that order would have been vilified for the rest of their lives Right because then you know if it turned out that they're right here because you just don't know right

[01:16:53] You know, I don't know You're saying if they were 100 sure that they that they knew they were going to crash into the world trade center Which it's just sorry james. That's a silly hypothetical because because Right because because once you destroy them then no one would ever know

[01:17:07] That's what was going to happen and all this guy is known for is Killing all the civilians right not that he saved right the world trade center and I get and the reason I asked in that way though was It's it's of course related to your decision

[01:17:21] Because you were in charge of two missiles Essentially the two other civilian jets that could have taken them out the conversation that you're about to have with me came up several times After after the situation happened and what you're you're going to say in my mind

[01:17:35] I'm seeing you I think that you're going to say listen chris. What if they had actually hit? In the air right you would have saved all the people in the world trade center one of the towers wouldn't have collapsed

[01:17:44] A lot of people on the ground wouldn't have died um, you know some more people on that other aircraft would have perished but It would have been a different situation altogether and my answer to that is Um That that's not

[01:18:01] Even something that as an air traffic controller that I could possibly contemplate Right letting two airplanes Allowing two airplanes close enough together to hit it's it's It goes against everything i'm trained to do so much that it actually makes me sick right now thinking about it

[01:18:18] and it's it's also just to because It sounds like you your job during the day I don't want to simplify it too much, but i'm simplifying it for Sure, sure. Of course your job during the day is like a video game

[01:18:33] Right, you're exactly what it is. So there's no no that's that's not a simplification. It's exactly what it is It's it's just like a video game and we win every day right and so for me to say okay

[01:18:43] Well, here's a video game that you played a million times suddenly There it's not pacman anymore It's it's pacman and by the way this asteroid ship is also in there And one of the pacmen have to run into the asteroid like it almost doesn't make any sense

[01:19:00] So that on that level and the other or maybe another way to view it is If someone's playing pacman, they try to win the game

[01:19:09] An abstract way to think of it is you know, I better lose lose this game so I could do something else with my time That also would not it's abstracting outside of the video game right which you're not You would never do

[01:19:21] Absolutely not no question, you know and and when I say it's like a video game I don't mean to to reduce the seriousness of the job right it's a bit we know Right, we know what we're responsible for controllers

[01:19:33] But we do actually view the the situation because it's it's you're doing the same thing as a video game You take actions that have responses that you see play out on the screen

[01:19:44] It's just like a video game and it really is it's a so what what happened at this point? Were you aware at all the the people who crashed in pennsylvania and the people who crashed into the pentagon?

[01:19:53] No, we did not know yet. But so a lot of us were sequestered in the room. They made it. You know, they made us recount our experience on a tapered quarter And you did that for for a cover your ass reasons or for intelligence reasons

[01:20:07] You know, I I think that the fba at that time Um, I mean all large bureaucracies engage in cover your ass behavior at all times But the I think at that time they were thinking listen This is going to be there's going to be a tremendous criminal investigation

[01:20:22] We're going to have to get as much evidence as we can Uh, and it turned out that listening to us You know, some people were bawling they were in tears, you know, so it was it passing the microphone around and giving your

[01:20:35] Your uh, we're kind of what just happened and it turned out that people were making mistakes And you know, we were already diverging from the facts of the situation And they didn't need this tape recording. We were making all that they had all the data

[01:20:46] They needed, you know, we had the radar data. We have all the radio frequency data recorded um So it was it turned out to be a non thing but the One of the things I wanted to say was that um, so I don't remember how long after

[01:21:03] 9 11 it happened But a friend of mine says listen chris. I have a friend who's a reporter for A newspaper in Hartford, Connecticut the current Um, he's he'd really like to talk to you You know, would you do that and so I did and I talked to him

[01:21:18] And he interviewed me on the phone. We had a really really fascinating conversation. It lasted several hours and so he he wrote an article and A week or two later, he calls me back and he says chris. I have a strange request um

[01:21:34] He says I have a reader who wants to talk to you Who's that? He says well, he was a passenger on the delta that you vectored to miss the united And he wants to call you and say thank you for saving his life

[01:21:48] And so I said yeah, give him my number let him let him call me So the guy calls me he turns out he's some sort of circuit court judge up in Connecticut. Um And again fascinating guy We had a great conversation. He and I talked for hours

[01:22:02] and I think that That that conversation with him is what Really inoculated me against the effects of PTSD It was a kind of a watershed moment for me. Um, and I were both in tears on the phone It was it was really special

[01:22:20] Did he when he was on the plane that he sensed that was something was going on when they feared to the right or nope No, not at all It wasn't until he read the article in the newspaper

[01:22:32] That he found out he discovered that he was in an incident with the one of the hijack aircraft And in those three or four months before then did you have some kind of PTSD? so This is also an interesting question for me personally because um

[01:22:49] So I took some time off right away, which you know controllers the next day you didn't show up Yeah, you can take traumatic leave. I don't know what they call it now, but at the time that's what it was called

[01:22:57] So I planned on taking a few days off. I didn't know how many I but I you know, I wasn't there wasn't anything to do anyway We grounded every aircraft in the country for three days There were no the only airplanes in the sky were jets military jets

[01:23:08] Was that hard by the way bringing all the planes down? No, not for me because I didn't do it I got up out of my the supervisor asked me if I wanted to get up and I said yeah, and I got up out of my chair

[01:23:17] So uh other controllers were there to do and yes, it was a lot of work A lot of the work involved just convincing the pilots that they had to land. They didn't believe it

[01:23:26] You know, um, but again, they're required to do what we tell them to do so Uh, but I you know, I wasn't there for that But anyway, so I took a few days off from work it ended up being about two weeks and I

[01:23:39] I happened to think to myself, you know, it would probably be a good idea for me to go see a shrink So I went and saw a psychiatrist um just

[01:23:49] Not knowing why really just maybe this guy can help. I wasn't suffering too bad, you know, you can nobody nobody in the country let alone New yorkers could get those images out of their head That day the next day the next week the next month, right? Um

[01:24:05] So I saw a psychiatrist and I spent some time with my family Uh Spent some time with friends my wife and I went bicycle riding Got out in the open air and did a lot of exercise And then so the the two weeks are almost

[01:24:21] I haven't decided when i'm going to come back to work yet But it's about two weeks later and I get a phone call from my union rep at the facility And he says chris. There's some guys here that want you to come down and talk to them

[01:24:30] Well, who are they? He says, I don't know He said, well, what do they want? He says well, they say they're here to help So, you know They're from the government. So how could they not be? um

[01:24:41] He said, well, who are they and he told me who they were and um He said, well, that's it's a critical incident stress management team. They say they they might be able to help you

[01:24:51] I said, I don't know that I need help but i'll come talk to him I said, would you I said would you talk to me? He says no, I wouldn't talk to

[01:24:58] I said, well, I think I might I'm going to go talk to him. So I went and talked to him so what it turned out to be was the fa has a Uh a team a response team a critical incident stress management response team

[01:25:11] with four national coordinators and about 15 members and all these guys do is respond to situations where controllers have been exposed to uh Critical incidents we used to call them traumatic incidents the the phraseology has changed And so they are actually other air traffic controllers who get some training

[01:25:30] They don't become shrinks, you know But they get some training in talking to other controllers because controllers like cops firemen emt's don't want to talk to shrinks Especially if you're a male, you know, it's it's the the whole ego thing and you know

[01:25:46] So but they might be willing to talk to one of their colleagues one of their peers So and that's what the these guys are called. They're called peer counselors So these guys came to talk to me

[01:25:57] So there's two or three of them and they had a psychiatrist with them And I think they had a priest and I was the only guy that showed up that day so we're sitting around a big conference table in a conference room and

[01:26:07] He says, you know, chris. I don't mean to gang up on you. There's a lot of us here I don't want you know, we don't want to intimidate you

[01:26:13] Uh, and I don't think that the process the way we normally would do it is going to work because it's us and you And normally it's a group of of people He says, so why don't we just talk let's just talk about what happened

[01:26:23] So I relayed to them the events of that day as I saw them and then he said, okay What are you doing now? What have you been doing for the past couple of weeks?

[01:26:30] And I told him I said I went and I saw a psychiatrist. I went and I got a lot of exercise I felt like I just needed to move, you know, I went running. I went bicycle riding Spent a lot of close time with my wife and uh

[01:26:43] My baby daughter at the time um Sorry, my wife was pregnant. Baby daughter wasn't born for a month um And uh, he says it's funny that you say that because you it seems like and and I said I'm not watching the tv

[01:26:59] I haven't seen the tv at all since that day and he says it's funny. You say that he says because you just listed Several of the things that we were going to instruct you to do

[01:27:08] Right and he says it sounds to me like you're already doing the things that we were going to help you learn how to do I really think you should be on this team

[01:27:18] So a few months later they sent me an official invite and I and I ended up on that team And I stayed on that team and became a national coordinator and I was a national coordinator for 10 years

[01:27:26] And I was on that team for the rest of my career when I retired in 2014 So now here we are 18 years later To the day because I'll put this out on 9 11 right 18 years later

[01:27:53] What are the odds that this can happen again? Like what are the scenarios that bother me if I think about it? You know, I think it's I think um that it's Far far far less likely to occur again

[01:28:07] And my main reason for saying that is not because now we have armored cockpit doors not because Some pilots carry firearms not because they've received special training and had a deal with hijackers, but because in my mind

[01:28:24] Passengers especially american passengers are not going to let it happen again Why do you think why do you think they were I think they'd be much because at the time they didn't know what the hell was happening

[01:28:33] Right. They never never heard it on my crash, but now we've been You know, we've all had seen what happened on 9 11 and we all I know for one I would stand up and fight Yeah, you know, uh, whereas

[01:28:48] I'm not that kind of guy that wants to stand up and fight. I'm a very passive Pacifistic kind of person, you know, I'm not a pugilist at all So but certainly the the terrorists

[01:28:58] Or whoever would the hijackers now would have different resources as well. So they could have Plastic machine guns that make it right. I only knows what the hell's out there So they could just kill all the passengers and then I don't know break through the door somehow

[01:29:11] But I just don't think it's nearly as likely and also there are other things happening under the covers that you and I are Not aware of right in the airline industry

[01:29:20] I know for a fact that there are things happening that we don't know about but like what like Maybe we don't know exactly. But like what's a Within five mile perimeter. What sort of thing is so there are cameras inside the aircraft now, right?

[01:29:33] So the pilots can see what's going on inside the aircraft From the flight deck. I see So if there's an indication that something's going on they can do something about it And there are things that pilots can do if they have enough time to respond

[01:29:47] I think the pilots in 9-11 had no time to respond and they were just just taken Completely unaware things pilots could they could take could they remove oxygen until everyone passes out? You know that that is an absolute possibility. Um

[01:30:01] Whether that's something that the airlines have thought of i'm i'm sure somebody's thought of it But no what the immediate thing that a pilot can do is move the aircraft in such a way that you can't stand up anymore

[01:30:10] Right, so they can they can turn the aircraft upside down They can move it very rapidly vertically up and down up and down So the people that are not strapped in are going to get slammed against the ceiling and against the floor repeatedly So, um, yeah

[01:30:22] No pilots can do things with the aircraft to prevent people from moonoo You know from walking through the aircraft and how much more automated is flying can can pilots flick a switch and say okay This is now on permanent automatic until it lands

[01:30:36] Maybe i'm making that i'll be that science No, there's there's a tremendous amount of automation in in the aircraft right now and more than that Absolutely even more than that. Um And yes, there are

[01:30:49] There are aircraft that can land themselves there have been for a long time actually um Aircraft that can land themselves like the space shuttle was able to land itself. I think right so

[01:30:59] So what can you make it so that once the pilot flicks that switch? He cannot keep take control back without Uh someone on the ground saying okay, you can take control back Well, that's again one of those things that i believe is probably happening under the covers

[01:31:10] You know, we're not going to hear about that if uh, you know and It's a dangerous project. Is it the computer flying the plane or is there someone on the ground flying the plane then? well, it's I think it's a dangerous proposition to to think about having

[01:31:29] An aircraft that is capable of being taken over by somebody on the ground right? um because there's there's a potential risk there, right Of the of that uh The link between the aircraft and whoever's controlling it being

[01:31:45] perpetrated by somebody but I could penetrate I could all it could be uh sort of a two-factor verification like right Like so on the plane. I have to first signal first

[01:31:55] I want to be taken over because pilots sees the hijackers in the back and then it's not the ground initiating it um the pilot's still in control So so there's another scenario where the hijackers are control and the ground takes over

[01:32:08] I think it's a very reasonable assumption to believe that There are people out there who are working on solutions like that and and and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if that

[01:32:17] If that's out there and and if it's already installed in airplanes on a smaller level, you know, and they're also I'm sorry real quick. There are also You could also make it so that the aircraft itself

[01:32:31] Says listen, I don't like what you're doing with the airplane. I'm not going to listen to you anymore So the aircraft can disconnect itself from Inputs from the control, you know from the control column and the aircraft might have some mode

[01:32:43] Or you know, you could create a situation technologically where the aircraft says We're done. I'm going to go land the plane somewhere safe Right, you know and and not let the pilots have any more input whatsoever into into the flight of the aircraft

[01:32:56] So given that there's so many technological solutions and there's marshals on the planes, why do you think we have such a Backlogging the airports with the tsa and oh, I got to take my shoes off And and I'm not complaining if this is truly

[01:33:10] Saving lives, but is it or is it just reactive like someone has a bomb in their shoes? So now we have to take their shoes off. I don't know I think some of it's definitely reactive, but I mean it's where would you say 18?

[01:33:21] Later's now it's 18 years later now. So um Oh, what was the incident in queens in september a little a month or two later, right? American 57 to crash and far rock away. Was that a hijack? No, absolutely not. Okay, definitely no. No It was a combination of really poor

[01:33:39] Uh aircraft design and training So the vertical stabilizer separated from the aircraft because the pilots Uh The pilot who was flying the aircraft at the time moved the rudder

[01:33:52] Full extension to one side then the other and back to the other side. So he was basically whipping the tail around Like uh like a whip and it and it flipped the vertical stabilizer right off the aircraft How's he doing that?

[01:34:04] Because they encountered the wake turbulence behind a seven I want to say a 747 another very heavy aircraft in front of them and uh And he was I'm not sure why he moved the rudder pedals

[01:34:15] Full travel, you know all the way to the left and then all the way to the right and then back again. Um, but There are actually rudder Travel limits on most airplanes at certain speeds. You can't move the rudder a certain amount of high speeds

[01:34:28] You don't want the rudder to be able to move very much at all Right if you move it too much you can do very bad things to the airplane like like lose the tail um Why the rudder limitations weren't in place? I don't know

[01:34:41] Maybe they didn't need to be at those speeds but so but it was definitely not a hijack in my mind Absolutely not on a smaller level. You know, you have companies like we're now talking about You know flying cars and you know going from one building to another

[01:34:55] Potentially extremely complicated. Yeah, because how do you a how do you do the air traffic control for that? Right b can you really take off from the tops of buildings and

[01:35:04] You know, I mean pan. I'm used to do it from the building on top of the grand central Yeah, you used to have helicopters that took off from the top of the building and flew to kennedy

[01:35:14] Um or the marine air thermal at leguardia. But now these are like Like smaller planes to just get you around town So like how is how is there gonna be air traffic control for that?

[01:35:25] They're gonna have to be regulated in exactly the way that helicopters are regulated now And so you have to land at a heliport, you know an established place But the risk for terrorism there too is is pretty big like

[01:35:37] The more people you put in the air, it seems like the more it is But again, it's the smaller the vehicle the less damage it's capable of doing You know, you're not you're not dealing with a weapon of mass destruction if you crash a helicopter

[01:35:47] Like you are if you crash an airliner Um At least that's the way I see it So well, you know, chris tucker, you know a first thanks for everything you did on on that day You you've saved lives

[01:36:02] It was you had to deal with a lot that that many people didn't have to deal with and What do you work on now your your work with the faa so I retired from the faa With 25 years in as a controller in 2014

[01:36:16] Um went into the financial industry with a mutual friend Uh And it turned out to not work out for me. I was I wanted to become a trader a financials trader trading futures and um It's bizarre because as an air traffic controller, which is a very stressful

[01:36:36] Like we already discussed a job. I was I was pretty good at it. I wasn't the best But I wasn't the worst either. It was pretty good at it But I was very confident of my ability when I was working and I could be

[01:36:46] There are times it sounds odd to hear a safety professional talk about being aggressive But I could be a very aggressive controller. Um, and I was very confident

[01:36:55] But as a trader I was timid as heck and and uh, not capable of making rational decisions once I had a large position on It's hard. So I don't think anybody really I wasn't good at it. So then I went, uh, I left That field in 2015

[01:37:11] I gave it a year the wife and I had an agreement if it if it doesn't work out after your year The fallback is I go get a job as an instructor teaching at traffic control at the facility that I used to work at

[01:37:20] So that's what I did 2015 I went back to New York center as an instructor And I worked as an instructor there for I want to say a year and a half and then um

[01:37:30] Somebody mentioned to me the possibility of working on the software that air traffic controllers use at the fas technical center in Atlantic City So I got a job doing that And the reason I took it is because it paid three times more what I was making

[01:37:44] And it's fascinating. I work as a software tester now I test the software that air traffic controllers use before they get it We're installing new stuff. So there's a new thing in air traffic control called datacom where The controllers can actually text the aircraft

[01:38:00] And so it it eliminates the 1940s technology that we're still using today to talk to airplanes on a radio, right? If you have a lot of airplanes on a frequency and you're very busy

[01:38:09] They all start talking at the same time. You can't hear what's being said and nothing gets done It's a dangerous thing So datacom is going to eliminate a lot of that um And we can actually send instructions to the pilot without ever speaking to them um

[01:38:25] And there it reduces a lot of Opportunities for errors to happen because in and radio in the radio world if I tell an aircraft American And it's busy in the radio, you know, you and I can hear each other very clearly right now

[01:38:37] Right and the people who are listening to this can probably hear me very clearly But radio is not like that. It's a little fuzzy sometimes sometimes it gets very fuzzy Because the bandwidth for that probably was sort of You know Sort of card on off

[01:38:54] 50 years ago, right, right? So it's it's still the same band the same thing with phone calls And so, you know, if you have a situation where I give an aircraft who has a similar sounding call sign and instruction and another aircraft who has

[01:39:06] A call sign that's very similar to that one. Here's it. He might respond instead of the aircraft I instructed that happens relatively frequently Um, you hear missed read backs where you instruct an aircraft to descend and maintain 1100 roger descend and maintain 1000

[01:39:21] You know the guy reads back 10 instead of 11. That's a bad thing You know, I stopped them at 11 for a reason. There's probably traffic at 10 um, so those kinds of errors Should be basically eliminated with the use of datacombs. So that'll be cool so I guess Final question

[01:39:39] Why is the only time I ever want tomato juice when i'm flying on a plane? I have no idea But I hear that from a lot of people like everybody on a plane

[01:39:49] The fact that they even offer tomato juice on a plane and they they don't offer it anywhere else in the world Except when you're flying what's what's the deal with tomato juice and being at high altitudes. I can't help you man

[01:40:01] I don't know and is the air significantly different between first class and coach That you're breathing. I don't think so, but I don't know I don't think so all right, well Chris Tucker

[01:40:15] Sorry to end with such no no questions. So these questions I wanted to know but um Again, thank you for everything you did on on 9 11. It was certainly the most terrifying day of my life and and hearing your story

[01:40:29] But like the rest of the people I work with we'll just tell you that I was just doing my job And that's true. I mean I we were just all there doing our jobs. So and I mean

[01:40:39] The portion that I had to deal with had a relatively happy outcome for a certain small group of people, you know horrible day Um But it could have been even worse for me. Yeah, and it wasn't all right. Well, thanks for coming on the show my pleasure james

[01:40:54] Thanks